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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Aftercooler

Just thought I'd post this here since I'm on both boards for any of you vortech guys that might be interested. Drop me a PM or post if you're wnating to get in on this buy.

Thanks,
Rick
 

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Nice...

Should help bump the power gain, and of course prolong the life of the car.

Has anyone looked into water sprayers, as another method of cooling too?? Maybe somethink like what Kenne Bell uses on his kits??
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
I've actually got a water injection system that I've never installed on my car. In reality though, the water injection is more of a boosting agent for temporary horsepower gain to cool the charge rather than being long term like an actual cooler. Adding a small nitrous shot after the cooler would acheive the same thing with an even more potent result since it cools the charge better than water would.

Rick
 

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The main reason for water injection was for detonation. Water keeps from detonation when the right amount is used. Many guys set the water injection up on a WOT and a pressure switch. Alcohol is more of a cooling agent that isn't as potent as nitrous.
 
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Jagular...what are your thoughts of this I/C bit. We already know a FMI works on the Cougar (seawulf), would you agree with Corky Bell on the air to air is better?

Thanks!
 

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Well. I'm not sure on the lower HP cars but I sell corkey bell intercoolers and we have one of is water to air IC's in our car. Think of it like this.

For a water to air intercooler to work you have to have a water to air intercooler, a water tank, a water pump, and a heat exchanger( basically a smaller radiator for the intercooler water). The water in the water tank heats p by the incomming air then cools down in the heat exchanger, but will always be warmer than the ambient air because the heat exchanger cannot cool the water fast enough.

It is true that you get some pressure drop from a FMIC due to the length of tube that is used to plumb up the FMIC. so that is a loss, but over long distances the FMIC's intake tempratures will be the most conistant, because the air outside will most likely be somewhat constant during driving conditions.

so, If you have an unlimited supply of ICE for your water to air then look out here comes the power, but if you are looking for an everyday driver that has good power and you don't have to mess with anything then the FMIC is for you.

The reason that I am using a water to air is I have it already. Its gonna be cool and the car will look stock with it instead of a large FMIC.

By the way, that guy is way out of line on those water to air units. I can sell a kit just like that if wanted for about 600-900 depending on the core and water tank used. My welds are ten times better than that seeings how thats what I do all day (weld)...
 
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Originally posted by: Jagular
Well. I'm not sure on the lower HP cars but I sell corkey bell intercoolers and we have one of is water to air IC's in our car. Think of it like this.


It is true that you get some pressure drop from a FMIC due to the length of tube that is used to plumb up the FMIC. so that is a loss, but over long distances the FMIC's intake tempratures will be the most conistant, because the air outside will most likely be somewhat constant during driving conditions.






Yes...where you loose the pressure drop is from each bend. For every 90 degree bend there is near a 1% loss. So by using three 30 degree bends you will have about 1% loss. Which isnt horrable. I agree with the weld...ouch. But....cauld be just a prototype. I could be jumping the gun on the welding job.

Good luck with your project...

Thanks Jagular!
Nathan
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Nathan, it seems that Jagular here just put down your whole no pressure drop fact that you've been spouting over on CEG. Now, unless you're interested in possibly buying the setup from me (the whole reason of this post) I respectfully ask that you stop clogging the lines on this post and make your own if you wish to debate the whole FMIC vs water to air issue.

Jagular, the welding was done from a fab shop that also does nothing but weld and fabricate all day. I'm sure if I were doing the welding myself or wanted to pay them for another 10 hours worth of work they probably could make it look a little nicer. However, since it doesn't have the appearance of chicken splatter I think most would be just fine for it and if they wish to make it more of a show piece it can be ground, filled, painted, powdercoated or whatever at their own leisure. FYI, on this prototype I've got over hours hours of drawing it up, fitting it, and reviewing it with the fabricator and he had over 8 hours in cutting all the pieces and welding it. What you can see from the pics is part of my desing where we've incorporated directional vanes on the inlet side and square to round corners on the outlet side all of which are cut and formed individually to aid in the airflow. I'm sure I could've had him stick a pipe on each side an call it good for a lot less time and money, but I want a performance piece. In any case, I do have some $ thrown in there for profit and my time to prototype it, but if you look at vortechs site, they sell a similar kit for $1500 and thats on one their making hundreds of, not a custom run of individual units.

Thanks,
Rick
 

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Originally posted by: Jagular
By the way, that guy is way out of line on those water to air units. I can sell a kit just like that if wanted for about 600-900 depending on the core and water tank used. My welds are ten times better than that seeings how thats what I do all day (weld)...

Well then make one cheaper, heck for that matter make ANYTHING!! Man I get sick of both of you (naynay and jagular) always talking and never one thing produced. Quit posting and start making something!!!!!!!!!!!!!

BTW for all others that cannot read through my sarcasm, you CANNOT make this cheaper I investegated it for my SC 3L and I came to the exact same price without all the tedious work Rick has put into making it fit right, if you have a SC BUY THIS IC!
 
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Originally posted by: Kinger
Originally posted by: Jagular
By the way, that guy is way out of line on those water to air units. I can sell a kit just like that if wanted for about 600-900 depending on the core and water tank used. My welds are ten times better than that seeings how thats what I do all day (weld)...[/


Well then make one cheaper, heck for that matter make ANYTHING!! Man I get sick of both of you (naynay and jagular) always talking and never one thing produced. Quit posting and start making something!!!!!!!!!!!!!

BTW for all others that cannot read through my sarcasm, you CANNOT make this cheaper I investegated it for my SC 3L and I came to the exact same price without all the tedious work Rick has put into making it fit right, if you have a SC BUY THIS IC!



I for one Kinger do have something to show. And another...i have four cars going at the same time. And im sure Jagular has the same issue. To be honest, i havnt seen much of anyone speaking up and wanting a turbo on thier car (Cougar). Jagular and i are stretching our necks out for no gain.....so far. Sure people "talk" and say they want a Boosted cat....but why arent there more boosted cats with a Street Flight kit bolted on it.

So i sit here and listen to you complain for us pointing out what is FACT, and helping others out before they fork out cash for things they dont need.....great job Kinger. Everyone...Kinger says waist your money even though we all know a FMI will fit and work on the Cougar. Oh Kinger.....air to air intercoolers are around $599...im doing the math and thats around $700 cheaper.

Im sorry if people think im being an ass...but someone has to be the one to point out wrong things. So if that makes me an ass....sorry. Hopefully i can make up for it later.

If your worried about a 1% loss of pressure...then yes, spend the extra money. Even though the comment was over length....not bends. If someone would have said that i was going to loose pressure because of the bends then i would have agreed.

Thanks!
Nathan
 

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Naynay I'm going to smack you in the head and hopefully a little common sense will seep in at the same time. A air-to-air will not fit, I have been under the car installing oil coolers, heat exchangers, measuring, prototyping, everything ...there is no room. Crawl under a car with a V6 not a I4 (ie seawulf) and slide a IC into place and take a picture of it, if you can fit the PROPER IC WITHOUT any piping in there I'll eat my words. If a air-to-air would fit we would do that because it is cheaper (although still not optimal).

Since your so found on Corky Bell read the section on IC core sizing, determine the optimal core size (no shoving under sized units in just to show one fits) make some end tanks since they are so cheap and get back to me.
 
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LOL.....take a deep breath! NOW take your measuring tape and go out to your car and see if you have 2.5" (thickness of core)....yes you have room. NOW measure the length....hmm you have more than 29" of length dont you. This is not rocket science here. If Itsturbo can do it you can......

I have a V6....and i dont need to crawl. Its on a lift!
 

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Not trying to step on any ones toes here, but Kinger statment got me thinking. Wouldn't an "undersized" FMIC be better then, having no intercooler. Even going with a less then optimal intercooler, I would think is still be better then none, such as the Vortech is currently configured.:shrug:

Now, I don't know the first this about a FI setup, but I'm curious to hear peoples opinions.
 
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Very true....and if you dont believe me i could go the extra mile and qoute Corky Bell. Thats up to you or anyone else.
Mine are 2.5".....really should be 3.0" though. There isnt tons of room in there....adequit is the word.
Later,
Nathan
 

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Well seeing as how my pics are being bandied about, without ASKING PERMISSION:mad::banhim:, I think I'll wade into the frey.

There's a decent amount of room for a intercooler that would support 300-400hp on the Cougar. Again the hard part is routing the piping on a V6. If you were to take off the bumper and do some cutting, then it's much easier. HOWEVER...

For some reason I didn't get that this is also about superchargers and not just turbos. With a turbo the psi drop can be fixed by just upping the boost a bit with a MBC. On a supercharger it's not so easy. Even with all the piping and IC you'd only see a max of 1psi loss with a good FMIC. This loss on a SC system, while it would make it safer with the loss of 1 psi and extra cooling of the air charge.....might not be worth it in the sence that it may not give much power for the money. I don't know, whatever....but it's doable I think either way, just a question of worth it.

P.S. Not really pissed about the pics.:tongue:
 

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superchargers benefit from intercoolers?

:cover:

i thought turbo's used intercoolers cuz since the turbo runs off of exhaust, it heats up the air going thru it. Superchargers are belt or shaft driven

sorry... its 110 am and im not in the mood to read up on SC tech. tho i prolly should, considering I'll have the bank to cover the Vortech soon :evil:
 

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Compressing air will cause an increase in temperature no matter what is doing the compressing, ie. the turbo or SC unit.

Many people feel they can run without an IC with a Supercharger running low boost, and honestly theu probably could get away with it. But for optimal running and prolonging the life of your engine, decreasing the temperature of the air is very significant.

Everything you can do to ward of detonation and get the most power out of the least amount of boost, and keep that engine running for as long as possible...an IC of some type should be on the required list of parts...
 

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Argh, all this bickering, and still no resolution other than both sides claim they are right.

I am more apt to believe Kinger at this point, but then again, I am buying his engine. =) I've spoken w/ Terry many times about this, and he's recommended we stick w/ an Air to Water Intercooler for my swap. We might be using an N-tercooler as well to keep water temp down, but that won't be until after we tune to determine if its needed. I'm just going to go back to lurking and listening to Terry, since he doesn't ***** and moan as much as ya'll. ;)

E1
 
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sorry if Im stepping in where I should not. But if you read corky bell's Maximum Boost book then you would understand that he is using a water/air intercooler because there is no room. Looking at the 99 v6 here in my driveway it looks way harder then in was for my car to shove a decent FMIC in there. I simply took the bumper off, hacked the hell out of the fiberglass bumper. For the cougar it doesn't look that easy.

Any water to air intercooler has the potential to surpass 100% efficiency. Sure for daily driving an air to air unit is better. Why?
no drain on the battery from the pump. No lines that could fail ( highly doubt it ) and less maintenance overall. There has to be compromises though. This system that he is putting together ( sorry I suck at names) looks pretty good. For the price it isnt bad at all. A good efficient FMIC like the one Hahn racecraft sells is eoughly about 800.

To the guy asking if a tiny intercooler is better then none at all...YES. Theres 4g63 eclipses in the 11's with the stock sidemount, granted the air volume of an inline 4 is a bit less then a v6 but they are running 20+ PSI.

here is a similar topic on our forums.
2GNT
 
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