New Cougar Forum banner
61 - 80 of 133 Posts

·
Administrator
1999 3.0 SilFro
Joined
·
24,723 Posts
Yep, I learned the hard way and ordered a set for an earlier split-port engine, and ended up not being able to use them because the plug shape was different. MotorMan was very accommodating in allowing me to return those and get a correct set sent out to me for just the price of shipping.

Pretty sure 1999 was the final year of split-port 3.0's; they got rid of the IMRC for the 2000 MY.

As far as timing chains go - I think I ordered a 2.5 set from some eBay vendor; it was a little over 100 bucks. No fitment issues with my 2005 Taurus cams. Although one of the tensioners failed on me so I had to drop the engine to replace that. I ordered a new pair of tensioners from RockAuto. It's been fine ever since.

I may have mentioned this before in this thread, but I discovered that the split-port manifolds and IMRC were seriously choking my 3.0 on the low end, or that's how it felt to me. The IMRC hit was downright VIOLENT. I pinned the secondaries open for a test and it was distinctly happier. So in the end I installed a completely gutted lower intake with no butterflies or rods, and an SVT upper that was extrude-honed to within an inch of its life, along with a 70mm V8 throttle body from PRT. That seemed to make all the difference, especially once I was able to get a tune to turn off the IMRC and flatten out the torque curve (I think I gained about 40 horsepower at the old IMRC shift point once the tune got ironed out).

Happy to answer any questions about hybrid builds; I've been waist-deep in it.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,921 Posts
You got me curious about oil pumps...Looks like there's at least one company that upgrades them, but at $500 I doubt they move a lot of inventory.

I don't think we have any reason to believe we need more oil pump for a mostly factory car. Maybe if you had a bunch of extra loads on the system like multiple turbos, large oil squirters, and other random hydraulics, or if you were building a $5000 custom racing engine, but then you probably wouldn't be on this forum.

You could always add an accusump for a little extra insurance although you would end up spending over $500 on that too probably.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
64 Posts
Discussion Starter · #63 ·
You got me curious about oil pumps...Looks like there's at least one company that upgrades them, but at $500 I doubt they move a lot of inventory.

I don't think we have any reason to believe we need more oil pump for a mostly factory car. Maybe if you had a bunch of extra loads on the system like multiple turbos, large oil squirters, and other random hydraulics, or if you were building a $5000 custom racing engine, but then you probably wouldn't be on this forum.

You could always add an accusump for a little extra insurance although you would end up spending over $500 on that too probably.
I was thinking more along the lines of the engine being a bit older, as they age, clearances grow and there are usually a few options, one is to go with a heavier grade oil to help compensate, and another is to have a higher flow oil pump. It just gives a little more peace of mind (at least in my experience).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
64 Posts
Discussion Starter · #64 ·
Happy to answer any questions about hybrid builds; I've been waist-deep in it.
Thanks @B3NN3TT, honestly you're responses and the responses of others like @mmc757 were what gave me the confidence to move forward with this project.

For the IMRC delete, I was thinking the same thing, just get rid of it, I'm sure it was originally added for fuel mileage or something. When you deleted yours, how did you plug the holes? I'm thinking of doing some simple aluminum braising but want to double-check if it's even necessary.

Also, can you provide more info on the TB you went with? I have a 70mm (I think) from a 97' Expedition sitting around that I may try to modify.
 

·
Administrator
1999 3.0 SilFro
Joined
·
24,723 Posts
The IMRC was implemented to allow good low-end torque and switch to high-end power without any sort of variable valve timing. It’s sort of a proto-vvt. A hybrid 3.0 doesn’t need that; it makes plenty of both. That’s why the oval-port cams are good for these builds - they are designed to be used without an IMRC.

Aluminum braising is the best solution for filling holes in the lower manifold, although alumaweld putty is perfectly fine. Anything that seals.

The throttle body is from a 5.7 truck engine, IIRC. PRT Autosport sells retrofitted 70mm throttle bodies fitted with SVT linkages to connect to the Cougar throttle cable with no modifications. There’s a good bit of work involved, which is why I never bothered to do that myself.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
64 Posts
Discussion Starter · #66 ·
Made an offer for $75 on a set of 8 reman Bosch injectors and it was accepted: Bosch Fuel Injector Set X 8 Fits RAM1500 Durango Grand Cherokee 4.7L 2001-2007 | eBay

Also, another mod I'm going to do is use the stock fuel pump out of my wife's 2014 Mustang GT, which gets [email protected]/12V so when/if I decide to go F/I down the road I'll have the capability to do so :)

I have parts on the way, and more parts to be ordered, but all in all, it's looking like re-assembly will start before the month is over, stay tuned for pics!
 

·
Administrator
1999 3.0 SilFro
Joined
·
24,723 Posts
More on fuel -

As mentioned, I was driving my 3.0 on an SVT Contour ECU with SVT Contour injectors for quite a while, and it worked OK, although it was leaving a lot of power on the table in that configuration.

Before I took it in for dyno tuning, I contacted my tuning guy to consult about fuel injector choice. He advised me to NOT drive the car on the 24# injectors until it was tuned for it, as the extra fuel delivery could potentially wash down the cylinders and be generally detrimental to the engine. So we devised a plan wherein I removed my SVT ECU and took it to his shop and he did a bench tune on it to safely use the 24# injectors, so I could install them at home and drive the car to the shop later on, safely, for a real dyno tune.

I don't know how much of that was just him being cautious and CYA and how much was a real risk, but I did appreciate the care, and he didn't charge me for the bench tune, so I think it is a legitimate concern and worth considering when you are assembling.
 
  • Like
Reactions: mmc757

·
Registered
Joined
·
52 Posts
More on fuel -

As mentioned, I was driving my 3.0 on an SVT Contour ECU with SVT Contour injectors for quite a while, and it worked OK, although it was leaving a lot of power on the table in that configuration.
Can you put out numbers? How much you gained after?
I think it's the most used configuration of 3.0 hybrid to use svt injectors, so are we losing hp's because of injectors size?
 

·
Administrator
1999 3.0 SilFro
Joined
·
24,723 Posts
The injectors weren't the source of the power deficit, those were added just for insurance. The 19# injectors don't have much left in them once you hit 200 wheel HP, so I welcomed a little room to grow.

The problem was the IMRC delete. The ECU is programmed for an IMRC, and all the timing and fuel tables are written to take advantage of that. The IMRC causes a HUGE change in air volume and velocity when it opens up at 4000-ish RPMs, so the fuel and spark tables have to change radically in that tiny window of RPMs. When your setup doesn't have an IMRC, the fuel/spark are utterly unsuited to your powerband. So those need to get re-written to take advantage of the different airflow characteristics.

With the SVT tune on my IMRC-delete 3.0, there was a massive dip in the powerband starting at around 4000 RPMs, where the anticipated switch was supposed to take place, and it bottomed out at 4500 before figuring things out and getting it back. After tuning, I gained around 30 horsepower right there in the meat of the powerband - which is where I spend most of my time on the autocross course. For peak numbers, I only gained 10-12 horsepower at the top end, but that area under the curve in the mid-range was a revelation.

Here's a kind of crappy superimposition of the before/after from 4000-6000 RPMs (blue is SVT tune, red is custom tune), showing the fall-off in both power and torque:

81594


You can see how far down in power it was from 4500 on.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
64 Posts
Discussion Starter · #70 ·
would it be ok for me to drive with the stock injectors temporarily then? my goal is to get it running and make sure there are no leaks/issues that I need to address (the tranny is a big question-mark right now), then immediately get it in for tuning, from my limited research:

stock injectors: 17lb
svt: 19lb
99' Taurus: 24lb
 

·
Administrator
1999 3.0 SilFro
Joined
·
24,723 Posts
I would think that it should start and run on 17# injectors, but you'd have to be GENTLE to keep from leaning out, and listen very closely for knock. I wouldn't rev it much over 3000 or so on 17# injectors. 19's should be safe, but the Cougar ECU might be a little confused with those, so you might be better off with the 17s just to start and idle, and maybe some very gentle driving. Probably worth reaching out to your tuning shop for a consult.
 
  • Like
Reactions: rallyusa

·
Administrator
Joined
·
15,542 Posts
Tuning is always the best answer but if that has to be delayed for whatever reason (you really want to do your tune after all mods are done) installing a set of the 19# SVT injectors with an SVT ECU (remember to get the PATS chip and swap it into your key) will make it run decently, though leaving a lot of power on the table like B3NN3TT said. I also ran a 3.0 hybrid (2002 heads) for an extended time on that setup with no obvious issues.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
64 Posts
Discussion Starter · #73 ·
Hey Ya'll, I'm ready to start buying gaskets and timing components, I've done some searching but can't find a good parts list, this is what I've come up with so far:

Everything from the head-gaskets down = 3.0L gaskets
Everything from the head-gaskets up = 2.5L gaskets (SVT b/c I'm using an SVT intake & TB)

From what I'm finding, the only difference looks like it's the intake gaskets, everything else looks the same, does that sound about right?

Also, I want to reseal my rack since it's out right now, and I want to at least tear down my MTX and give it a good once over, and put new bearings/seals in while I'm at it, any preferences for aftermarket kits for that?

Thanks in advance! Pictures of the build coming soon btw
 

·
Administrator
1999 3.0 SilFro
Joined
·
24,723 Posts
I think the only thing 3.0-specific is the head gaskets. The 3.0 oil pan has an integrated silicone gasket, so there's no need to address that unless you're trying to adapt a 2.5 oil pickup and pan, which - why. I THINK the 3.0 oil pan gasket is serviceable, so you could replace that if you feel the need. Timing cover is 2.5, so timing cover gaskets and front crank seal are, too. Pretty sure rear main seals are interchangeable.

So you could probably just do the whole 2.5 gasket pack and get 3.0 head gaskets alone and be just fine.

MTX-75 bearings and shims and stuff are REALLY SCARCE. I installed a Torsen in my trans about 8 years ago and it was tricky then; I'd hate to think about trying to find them now. Axle seals should be easy, but internal stuff - yikes.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
64 Posts
Discussion Starter · #75 ·
Update on injectors, the one on the left is the "brand new", "Bosch" injector I got off of eBay, the one on the right came out of the 2004 Taurus engine that I'm using.
81606

Also, here are the nozzle pics, just for the posterity of this post if anyone comes looking in the future, this is why you can't use most Taurus/Sable injectors (except for 1999), because the spray pattern is for a split port.
81607
81608
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
64 Posts
Discussion Starter · #76 ·
Got the donor engine torn down today, fully disassembled and all the bearings look great, minimal to no wear. I did notice two tiny metal slices in the oil pickup, so I'm wondering if I should go ahead and replace the crankshaft main and connecting rod bearings, I'm leaning towards yes just for peace of mind, what do you all think?

Also, what is the acceptable end play (thrust) for this crankshaft?
 

·
Administrator
1999 3.0 SilFro
Joined
·
24,723 Posts
I mean, if you’ve already pulled the rod caps, and you can source some new bearings, why not.

Scott, wasn’t the Duratec build manual PDF floating around here somewhere?
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,921 Posts
Verticalscope cant seem to figure out how to keep those links functioning. I can email them to anyone who needs them. Just PM me your email address.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
64 Posts
Discussion Starter · #79 · (Edited)
Thanks @B3NN3TT and @mmc757, I just dug through my email after remembering it was emailed to me last year, so I'm good :) I'm going to go ahead and replace all the bearings as well as the pistons and rings while I have it all apart, might as well.

However, a new problem just reared its ugly head, I started cleaning the block surface and found this lovely pitting around a water jacket hole, thankfully it's only happening on one, the cylinder head had equal pitting, however I'm replacing them with brand-new cylinder heads so that's not going to be an issue.

81665


I looked at the head gasket before tossing it, and it hadn't blown, so it was probably pretty close to though from the looks of this pitting. I'm thinking of using Devcon or some other high-temp putty to fill it in, however I'm wondering how strong this will be and if it's more worthwhile to just take it to an engine shop and have them either deck it, or weld in some more material. Thoughts?
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,921 Posts
Hold up the new gasket to it first. That space is probably not under the gasket so its exposed to coolant all the time.
If that space is under the gasket, you could use some high temp RTV just in that space only but if its not under the gasket than I would leave it alone. Anything you put there is likely to fail unless its properly compressed under the gasket
 
61 - 80 of 133 Posts
Top