[Guest]

Ok... i have gone through many hours of research and many pots of coffee and still have a few questions. I have read EVERY post on this topic *that hasn't been archived*

I have access to a 2003 Escape motor with only about 5k miles on it. my car is a 99 and was built early that year, i do believe i have a return fuel system if that matters. I know the benefit of putting in a hybrid is higher horsepower and a higher compression ratio- but from what i've read, a straight swap is much easier to pull off.

With a lower compression rate out of a stock 3, wouldn't this be better for running a turbo than a higher compression hybrid? Or am i totally mistaken and ill informed?

Also if i used the 03 Escape motor, and did a straight swap, what mods would have to be done? It should just be longer hoses for hookups, correct?
How many pounds are the injectors in that motor?
Would i still need a new chip burned? also, what processes are involved in that? would i have to take my car to streetflight? or what?

Thanks for any help- and please don't grill me if these have been answered before- i really want a three liter, however, my motor is not suitable for a hybrid, so i'm looking for cost effective, and what will leave me without a car for the least amount of time. I have been researching this since i bought the car and finally have access to the motor and the money to have my shop install it... thank you again for any help!!!

PS- Is there anyway to set the odometer to the mileage of the engine i am installing- for ease of remembering to have routine maintenance performed, If i got a new computer, it would reset the odometer, and theoretically, i could run up the new mileage to match the mileage of the swapped engine, correct?

 

[FastCougar]

1) Straight up swap is easiest.
2) Better for forced induction due to lower CR, but 03 Escape 3.0L has a CR of something like 10:1, so negligable difference.
3) Would require the stock wiring harness and ECU and once you get the keys programmed to the ECU at the dealer, it should start right up after the swap.
4) Odometer is more an indication of chasis milage, not engine milage. That is why you see ads like "100K miles on the car, 5K miles on the new engine ..."

 

[PuckPuck]

The hardest part of the straight swap is getting the idle to hook up.

My 3L UIM from a taurus has the controller mounted on top, causing some hood clearance issues..... so i had to block that part of the intake off and remote mount it.... very much rigged, and i don't like it... i'm currently looking for another intake (st-220) to use instead as the idle air is mounted on the side of the intake... Now if i'm not mistaken, my escape has the idle controller mounted on the side so that may work, but i would need to see a pic of the intake to tell you for sure if you'll have probs....

now the next issue with keeping the stock idle controller motor location is you'll need to figure out how to use the 3L TB and hook it up... you may end up needing to change the entire spring/lever assembly and swap in one from a 2.5L TB instead, if it can even be done... i haven't tried this part yet, but if and when i get another intake i know that's going to be my next issue...

egr can also be a pain, but if you pre-assemble the entire engine with intake on an engine stand, then fit the 2.5L exhaust manifolds you can then determine exactly how to run the egr pipe, and get one welded together for a perfect fit...

you'll also need to use some of the 2.5L fuel rail and some of the 3.0L fuel rail and either braze some metal tubing between them or use some high pressure fuel injector rubber hose with the proper clamps (i used rubber hose with proper clamps)... be careful when making the fuel rail work, as you don't want the regulator to end up hitting against the TB bracket....

Now about the lower vs. high compression... right now it's winter so you won't hear about it, but last spring/summer i could count at least 5 ceg members who lost a motor due to detonation... wether it was bad gas, high ambient temps, too much timing or a combination of those items i'm not sure, but i can assure you the high compression played a major role in it.... if you live down south that gives even more reason to NOT go with a hybrid.... 11.2:1 just scares the bigibees out of me... getting a properly tuned chip will help but that's more money to spend.... not to mention the extra money to get the 3L valves cut into the 2.5L heads....

next item, it is finally now "starting" to become concensus that the 3L UIM does indeed outflow the 2.5L UIM. Something I have been saying for a while. still there are no hard dyno numbers to prove it, but by design it makes alot of sense.

if you plan on adding a turbo, a straight up 3L is your answer....
if you want maximum power naturally aspirated be prepared to spend a few more dollars then a straight up 3L swap, and hybrid would be the answer
if you just want 30 more hp/tq and spend as few dollars as possible with a very good base for future considerations, i would say a straight up 3L swap is your answer

 

[Guest]

Okie, so taken that there is a negligable difference in CR in the escape engine, if running a turbo, i'd be better off with a straight taurus 3L swap, correct? What's the CR for those? Also, i read in a FAQ that the UIM of the Taurus 3L is too big to fit under our hood, which is why i decided on the Escape. Is this true? and if it is too big, that brings me back to having to build a hybrid, correct?

 

[PuckPuck]

wanted to add... you still use the 2.5L wiring harness and coil pack and your 2.5L ECU....

you will need to modify 2 plugs on the 2.5L wiring harness to extend them. The EGR solenoid plug, and the TPS plug....

mind you this also means instant CEL due to no imrc controller (i'm still working on a solution for this one)

 

[Guest]

If you wait a couple minutes i can scan a picture of the 3L...

 

[FastCougar]

Originally posted by: PuckPuck
wanted to add... you still use the 2.5L wiring harness and coil pack and your 2.5L ECU....

you will need to modify 2 plugs on the 2.5L wiring harness to extend them. The EGR solenoid plug, and the TPS plug....

mind you this also means instant CEL due to no imrc controller (i'm still working on a solution for this one)

Why, why not a full swap of EVERYTHING, ECU included?

 

[CougarGT]

Hybrid is easier IMO. Its like putting a 2.5L back into the car. Everything bolts up like stock, and fits perfect.

 

[Guest]

Hey PuckPuck... can i e-mail you the images? i've got two pictures of the 3L. it's in the Escape still though.

 

[PuckPuck]

Originally posted by: FastCougar

Originally posted by: PuckPuck
wanted to add... you still use the 2.5L wiring harness and coil pack and your 2.5L ECU....

you will need to modify 2 plugs on the 2.5L wiring harness to extend them. The EGR solenoid plug, and the TPS plug....

mind you this also means instant CEL due to no imrc controller (i'm still working on a solution for this one)

Why, why not a full swap of EVERYTHING, ECU included?

because the harness won't fit

honestly... the harness are made COMPLETELY different.... heck i would prolly go as far as the think the PCM plug isn't in the same location....

I have both harnesses at home sitting on a bench.... if i get reminded on the weekend i'll lay them out and take a pic... the 3L harness would even fit between the engine and the firewall once installed....

and as far as the ECU, no 3L ever came in MTX flavor... sure it would work, but ask exigent what happens when he steps on the gas abrubtly (he swapped atx for mtx but left his atx ecu in car).... you essentially get a small hesitation, similarly to the ecu waiting for the atx trans to downshift before ramping up the fuel/spark....

 

[PuckPuck]

fastazz.... the compression ratio of ALL 3L blocks is 10:1... it's still 1.2 compression points lower... and considering the cougar comes stock with a 9.7:1 compression ratio, that is much closer to stock and would allow you to run stock timing much more safely....

as for the 3L UIM fitting under the hood... i sure hope it fits.... cause i have one installed in my car... the problem isn't with the intake but with the idle air controller mounted ontop the intake... it's like 1/2" too tall, but with engine vibrations it can prove to be nasty...

email me the pics at [email protected]

 

[Kinger]

You guys are nuts, a straight 3L swap is one of the HARDEST swaps, fuel rails, intake manifolds, no secondaries, intake system...all fine for someone that knows what they are doing and can take the time to make it right, but for someone looking to bolt stuff up and start her up the hybrid is MUCH easier. SF will have programs for 3L hybrids so a simple chip and boom its running with only minor install glitches to worry about. No custom parts, no fabbing, no guesswork.

If your worried about CR get a set of 9:1 pistons, yielding a 10:1 ratio OR mill the heck ouf of the heads OR get the SF (should anyway) with a few degrees of timing taken out and your safe. No way would I ever build a straight 3L...that's just me I want to tough out a install then drive it and not worry about parts I 'hacked' into place.

 

[PuckPuck]

i think the fact that you need to fill some holes in the block and drill another one scares a few people... as it's inside the block, and the whopping 3 mods you need to do on the outside of the block is where this comes from...

and although it would be great, you could just get lower compression pistons, a chip and what not, but i was trying to be price concious.... not everyone is made of money.. yes i know hp cost money but there are some who spend it diligently, and try to maximize their dollar without sacrificing anything else....



fastazz - i got your pics, but it's still kinda hard to tell... i'll take a real close look at my escape this weekend and i'll let you know

 

[Guest]

Ok, thanks everyone for the help! I agree with PuckPuck.. i do not have the money to rip apart the block and drill holes/fill holes reassemble. I am looking for the most cost effective, straightforward swap. I already have access to a good 3 liter, i do not however have access to a good 2.5 to work with. Mine has 80K miles on it, and isn't in that great of shape. I'm more looking for just a reliable new engine to drop in when my 2.5 finally kicks the bucket. But thanks for everyone's help!

 

[Guest]

FastAZZ,
I'm gona go shopping for my swap parts sometime this winter break, I'll probably be getting a decent hookup(granted my friend's uncle has the parts).
Let me know what you wantand I'll check how much I can get it for.
Gus.

 

[Kinger]

Agreed it saves a TON of money of you can keep the heads on the block and not have to buy the headgasket, or other gasket set (over $300!). I think Mr. Haines has or will customize the fuel rail so it will work, and he might have a 'kit' solution for the UIM stuff. I still don't like the no secondaries and a constant CEL (I'm a CEL freak I can't stand having it on). It would be ideal to have the 3L long block and a adapter plate that you could buy that would allow use of the 2.5 fuel rails and LIM,UIM. Then everything bolts together and it would be a CHEAP install. Just don't think that exists yet. Good mod money idea for you puck!

 

[CougarGT]

Originally posted by: Kinger
Agreed it saves a TON of money of you can keep the heads on the block and not have to buy the headgasket, or other gasket set (over $300!). I think Mr. Haines has or will customize the fuel rail so it will work, and he might have a 'kit' solution for the UIM stuff. I still don't like the no secondaries and a constant CEL (I'm a CEL freak I can't stand having it on). It would be ideal to have the 3L long block and a adapter plate that you could buy that would allow use of the 2.5 fuel rails and LIM,UIM. Then everything bolts together and it would be a CHEAP install. Just don't think that exists yet. Good mod money idea for you puck!

One head still needs to be removed, as the passenger side engine mount needs to be installed.
This problem can be bypassed with the use of a custom mount.

 

[mcon99]

One head still needs to be removed, as the passenger side engine mount needs to be installed.
This problem can be bypassed with the use of a custom mount.

one head does NOT have to be removed for a straight 3.0L swap

the upper engine mount can be ground down enough to fit between the heads. seen pictures of it done over at ceg. pretty sure you just need a decent bench grinder.

given that I am beginning to believe that a straight up 3.0L swap would be the cheapest going

 

[PuckPuck]

unless you get a nearly new 3L engine, you will need to rebuild it... which means new gaskets no matter what... that one is unavoidable... but the cost of cutting the 3L valves can hurt....

Kinger - you just gave me an idea ... maybe i'll find some time during the holidays and make up some jigs for the EGR pipe.... still need to work on a better solution for IAC though to make it sellable... and fuel rail... well quite honestly a hack saw 8" of 3/8" injector hose and 2 host clamps.... that's the easiest of the 3 mods to do... honestly unless i wanted it to look stock or someone was going to braze it for free, i wouldn't pay to get that done....

 

[Kinger]

Yeah that is what I meant, a longblock 3L with under 5K seems common, no need for a ton of gaskets just the intake ones and you would be fine I would guess (ie no oil seals, etc).

Puck not to be "Mr. Safe" but please be VERY careful with that fuel rail. It is VERY hard to clamp with enough force to hold a fuel hose on a cut rail even if it had enlarged ends to stretch the hose over and seal it. If they loosen up and come off, well your asking for some serious safety issues with fuel spraying around under the hood at over 40psi. Get that baby brazed and verified by a fuel rail guru that its safe and leak free.

Then yeah make a kit for straight 3L to be installed and take the guesswork out of the straight swap for newbies and make some money to add a turbo to your lower cr engine