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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hello guys!

Right now i am in process of buying 2004 Escape with 3.0 to swap it in my mondeo mk2 ST200. I always liked the idea of 3.0 hybrid but found some forums, where ppl were against it with the point that full 3.0 is making more power than hybrid so hybrid is pointelss.
So right now i am little bit confused. I always thought that 3.0 hybrid has bigger compresion so it will make more power? Or am i wrong and i am missing something? Would it be better to just match intake from 2.5 to 3.0 and be done with it or am i wrong even with that asumption? I have two 2.5 engines (normal 2.5 and ST200 2.5) and will have 3.0 from escape. What is the best way right now?
 

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1999 3.0 SilFro
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The hybrid DOES have higher compression, so it can certainly make more power - if the heads are ported properly, the larger valves from the 3.0 are used, and the intake manifolds are large enough to feed it. But the simple truth is that the 2.5 heads and manifolds do not flow enough for the 3.0 in stock form. The 2.5 intake manifold is optimized for the smaller displacement and really chokes a 3.0, so you need a drastically extrude-honed manifold like I have to keep up with the higher displacement.

So while the hybrid arrangement does have the potential for bigger power, it takes more work to get that potential out of it. A straight 3.0 will give you max flow right out of the box - but it takes more work to install/connect everything, and it will not run on an untuned ECU, whereas a hybrid will.

All in all, the dyno testing on both the hybrid and the straight 3.0 are all within a few percentage points of one another, so there is really no reason, performance-wise, to choose one over the other in the absence of boost; just choose the method that makes it easier for you to install/maintain, and enjoy.
 

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A full 3.0 will likely make a small bit more power.

But:

Don't underestimate the added amount of trouble to install it, and to make it work, especially with how hard it is to find someone who can tune our cars.
If I were going to do it again, I would do a hybrid.
 

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1999 3.0 SilFro
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Just to elaborate -

I started out with a hybrid 3.0 using a stock SVT/ST200 upper and lower intake manifold and throttle body and untuned SVT Contour ECU and SVT injectors. And I could immediately feel the effect of the lack of flow, especially in lower RPMs. The engine was choking, badly. It WANTED to go, but couldn't breathe well enough to make the power.

I did not wish to do any head work, as I was trying to keep the budget low, so I focused on the intake work to try and mitigate the problems.

I first tried pinning the secondary valves open in the lower intake manifold, and that helped out quite a lot. So I knew those would have to go. I arranged a dummy spring on the IMRC cable to keep it from throwing a Check Engine Light while I looked into my options.

I connected with Josh at PRT Autosport and picked up a maximum extrude-honed SVT upper intake manifold, an optimized lower intake manifold with no secondary valves, and a 70mm throttle body from a 5.4L F-150 V8, retrofitted with an SVT Contour linkage. The intake manifold opening was optimized to match the 70mm throttle body, so the EGR grooves were partially honed away and welded shut, meaning that I would need to delete the EGR system.

I took the car in for a dyno tune once I get everything where I wanted it. We upgraded to 3.0 24# injectors, and deleted the IMRC function and EGR function, and optimized the fuel and timing tables to compensate for the missing secondary valves. The difference was pretty shocking. It only made about 12 more peak horsepower than the untuned version, but added almost 30 hp in the mid-range. I'm sure if I decide one day to actually do some head work, it would be yet another order of magnitude better. But the car makes 200/205 on the dyno, and it puts down the power right where I need it, so I've got no desire to go to those lengths at this point.
 
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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Just to elaborate -

I started out with a hybrid 3.0 using a stock SVT/ST200 upper and lower intake manifold and throttle body and untuned SVT Contour ECU and SVT injectors. And I could immediately feel the effect of the lack of flow, especially in lower RPMs. The engine was choking, badly. It WANTED to go, but couldn't breathe well enough to make the power.

I did not wish to do any head work, as I was trying to keep the budget low, so I focused on the intake work to try and mitigate the problems.

I first tried pinning the secondary valves open in the lower intake manifold, and that helped out quite a lot. So I knew those would have to go. I arranged a dummy spring on the IMRC cable to keep it from throwing a Check Engine Light while I looked into my options.

I connected with Josh at PRT Autosport and picked up a maximum extrude-honed SVT upper intake manifold, an optimized lower intake manifold with no secondary valves, and a 70mm throttle body from a 5.4L F-150 V8, retrofitted with an SVT Contour linkage. The intake manifold opening was optimized to match the 70mm throttle body, so the EGR grooves were partially honed away and welded shut, meaning that I would need to delete the EGR system.

I took the car in for a dyno tune once I get everything where I wanted it. We upgraded to 3.0 24# injectors, and deleted the IMRC function and EGR function, and optimized the fuel and timing tables to compensate for the missing secondary valves. The difference was pretty shocking. It only made about 12 more peak horsepower than the untuned version, but added almost 30 hp in the mid-range. I'm sure if I decide one day to actually do some head work, it would be yet another order of magnitude better. But the car makes 200/205 on the dyno, and it puts down the power right where I need it, so I've got no desire to go to those lengths at this point.
Okay, i think hybrid is the way, after your points, the amount of work to make 3.0l work isnt for me. So hybrid it is!

So the main problem is air - i have a plan to open heads as much as would be possible - have a friend that can do it for cheap. The delete of the secundary valves is pain for me :( i love the way engine feels with them ,but if they are choke point, they will have to go. EGR will be deleted for sure.
You used 24# injectors from 3.0. Can i simply use the injectors from the Escape 3.0 engine? Will they fit on the 2.5 fuel rail?

I will for sure do the head work and still thinking about changing the crank bearings just to be sure it wont explode on me. Any other tips to do when the engine will be out?

Are you using LSD or have you done something to diff or transmision? Wouldnt be good to have that power and crack open trans in first pull :D
 

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1999 3.0 SilFro
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Regarding injectors - the 3.0 Escape injectors will fit, and will function - but they are optimized with a spray pattern for the 3-port heads, and the 2.5 are 6-port heads, so they need a more narrow spray pattern to perform to their optimum level. There is a very narrow model year range where the 3.0 had a 6-port head and used the same injector plug style, and I had to order those specially.

Also, it is not advisable to use the larger injectors without first having the ECU tuned to avoid washing down the cylinders.

I do have an LSD that I installed long before the 3.0 went in - that was a pretty early upgrade.
 

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Here's the pertinent injector information:


Those are from a 1999 Taurus/Sable. All Duratec 3.0's before this used the same 6-port heads, but before 1999 the injectors used a different plug on the connector. After 1999, they kept the compatible plug, but the engine switched over to the 3-port heads and the injector spray pattern changed to match.

1999 is the only year that had a matching connector and a matching spray pattern.

You wouldn't BELIEVE the time I spent researching this. Yeesh.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Man this is golden! So much usefull info! I am really looking for the project! Thanks for all the help!

I am just thinking how i will do it. Having the spare 2.5 non svt engine, i could sell my svt engine for some nice money and use everything from that non-svt engine. What is your opinion on that? I could use 3.0 cams with all the timing gear, 2.5 heads and it should work if i am not mistaken? The only downside should be that SVT cams are better at top end?
 

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I’m using 3.0 cams on my build. They are very close in spec to SVT cams; probably not even a noticeable difference in performance.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
So 3.0 engine is home. Last week i bought 2004 Escape and yesterday we pulled the engine. The engine is in pretty good condition but has around 190k miles (Car was driven right to my garden for around 100miles without problems). The question right now is... should i rebuild the block? 100% will do the head work - regrind and polish intake/exhaust intakes, maybe fit the 3.0 valves - this depends on the price.
But i dont know about the block. If i touch the block, i cant imagine the amount of money it will cost me and i am not really sure about it. If i would change crankshaft bearings, crank has to be matched so new bearings fit, am i right? Same with pistons and piston rings - so it has no piston slap? Or am i missing something? I am new to engine building so some help from expert like you would be very apreciated
 

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My block had pretty high miles - don’t know exactly how high, as the Taurus has a digital odometer and it was in a junkyard with no battery. But the frame was thoroughly rusted through, so it has been around.

Regardless, I didn’t touch anything inside. New head gaskets and new timing chains/guides/tensioners and sealed it up.

Generally these 3.0 vehicles all have automatic transaxles and are driven gently by old people. Sure, there are exceptions, but very few are getting redlined every day.

I say If it’s not sludgy inside, send it. Regular oil changes are all these things need. If there is a lot of crud under the valve covers, then you might have to think about a refresh.
 

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I started with a $300 junkyard 3l with unknown mileage and was low in compression in one cylinder but looked OK when opened up. The heads were sent off to be machined and given a valve job: $700 (optional). It was then installed after a basic refresh of gaskets/consumables for probably another $500. Then it spun a bearing and killed a piston not long after.

I ended up having a machine shop completely inspect, clean and rebuild the engine. That cost about $3,500, plus cost of replacing any “while you’re in there” stuff. Forged rods, new pistons, King bearings, oil pump, timing chain & guides, ARP head bolts, etc. Easily another $1,000 in parts and essentially a brand new engine in the end.

So let’s say, all said & done with fluids, sensors & bits we’re at $5,500 to rebuild using OEM or better parts. I could’ve saved a lot more by not going with the forged bits but I wanted to build in some overhead insurance.

In the end I considered time, knowledge and resources available to me and, as much as I wanted to do it myself, found it worth it to have a professional do the work. I could’ve dropped another $300 engine in but that’s not how I wanted to spend my time.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
I want this project so i can learn about engines - how to build them, how to mantain them, upgrade them and so on, so for me, it is more about experience so i dont wanna throw all my money at it, so the way to do it is the most budget way possible. But of course dont wanna save on something that will destroy it. I will probably check play on crankshaft bearings, rods and piston rings. If everything will be okay, i will send it and hope for the best :D I would like to post here sometimes with updated or question and get some help from you experts!
 

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1999 Cougar V6 MTX
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I want this project so i can learn about engines - how to build them, how to mantain them, upgrade them and so on, so for me, it is more about experience so i dont wanna throw all my money at it, so the way to do it is the most budget way possible. But of course dont wanna save on something that will destroy it. I will probably check play on crankshaft bearings, rods and piston rings. If everything will be okay, i will send it and hope for the best :D I would like to post here sometimes with updated or question and get some help from you experts!
When the heads are off inspect the cylinders, if the crosshatch is weak/gone you'll need to hone them to ensure compression will be adequate/ideal at which time you need new piston rings.

Once you start removing rod bolts are main crank bolts they each need replacing, all the bolts for the crank & rods are torqued-to-yield so they cannot be reused, this is an important fact because now your cost goes up significantly as the only crank hardware available is ARP or NOS Ford (which can only be bought one bolt at a time with a total cost rivaling the reusable ARP studs). Between rod bearings, crank bearings, main studs, and rod studs alone you'll have over $600USD into making the bottom end new @ stock spec again.

The biggest thing is worn out cam chain & sprockets on the 3.0, in America the Taurus/Escape are typically daily drivers that eventually get handed down to the young new driver of the household who fires it up and immediately goes to school then fires it up and immediately goes home then again to go to work afterwards before repeating to go home. So all that start-stopping stretches the timing chain. We picked up an 04 Taurus 3.0 for my brother's 2000 SVT Contour and the engine was superb in every way except the timing chain was worn out and the sprockets weren't far behind it..... But we weren't using that anyways since we opted for the SVT cams.

Let us know if you can swing the cost of 3.0 valves in the 2.5 heads, that would be ideal for a 3.0 hybrid.
My 99 Cougar's goal:
3.0 block
2.5 head (ported)
3.0 valves
2.5 SVT intakes (extrude honed eventually)
Headers
2.5 SVT flywheel
2.5 SVT throttle body
2.5 SVT injectors
2.5 SVT airbox
PCV catch can
 

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Once you start removing rod bolts are main crank bolts they each need replacing, all the bolts for the crank & rods are torqued-to-yield so they cannot be reused, this is an important fact because now your cost goes up significantly as the only crank hardware available is ARP or NOS Ford (which can only be bought one bolt at a time with a total cost rivaling the reusable ARP studs). Between rod bearings, crank bearings, main studs, and rod studs alone you'll have over $600USD into making the bottom end new @ stock spec again.
Sorry, this is just not true.
Even if you subscribe to the debatable theory that those bolts all need to be replaced (which the engine build manual does NOT require) there are still better options than ARP.
When you realize that the ARP "kit" isn't even the right size fasteners, and that drilling out holes, and adding larger nuts is required for the parts they send, than you can easily just assemble your own kit of the same parts in grade 12.9 (grade 10.9 for the oil baffle plate) for under $100.

Replacement block to bulkhead bolts
bolts 18-22$.77 ea (x5)
$3.85​
Bolts 1-4, 17$1.08 ea (x5)
$5.40​
Bolts 13-16$2.10 ea (x4)
$8.40​
Bolts 5-833.19/meter (x1)
$33.19​
Bolts 9-1218.43/meter (x1)
$18.43​
M8 nuts for 5-8$.12 ea (x8)
$0.96​
M10 nuts for 9-12$.21 ea (x8)
$1.68​
$71.91​
 

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Sorry, this is just not true.
Even if you subscribe to the debatable theory that those bolts all need to be replaced (which the engine build manual does NOT require) there are still better options than ARP.
When you realize that the ARP "kit" isn't even the right size fasteners, and that drilling and tapping, and adding larger nuts is required for the parts they send, than you can easily just assemble your own kit of the same parts in grade 12.9 (grade 10.9 for the oil baffle plate) for under $100.

Replacement block to bulkhead bolts
bolts 18-22$.77 ea (x5)
$3.85​
Bolts 1-4, 17$1.08 ea (x5)
$5.40​
Bolts 13-16$2.10 ea (x4)
$8.40​
Bolts 5-833.19/meter (x1)
$33.19​
Bolts 9-1218.43/meter (x1)
$18.43​
M8 nuts for 5-8$.12 ea (x8)
$0.96​
M10 nuts for 9-12$.21 ea (x8)
$1.68​
$71.91​
This list requires you to cut your own studs off of threaded rod stock, but if you're already committing to an engine build, than I assume you have the aptitude and capability of to cut some studs.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
In the end i will go with port matched - full 3L with SVT/ST200 intakes. Seems like the best of both worlds. Need to mantain the intakes (apparence) for our OMT and dont have to use premium fuel, dont have to match 3.0 valves in 2.5 head, no block fabrication with oil passages and so on. Heads will be going off so some porting will be done - some more porting for injectors isnt problem for me. I have plan to do maintanance on block so i hope pistons will be fine. I opened valve covers and sadly, cams are done - extreme pitting on 3 cams. So i am thinking about going with svt/ST200 cams but i like torque so 3.0 would be better - anyone any thoughts on this? I can regrind the 3.0 cams or take svt cams from my engine for free (which would be nice, so far price for regrind of 1 cam is around 100-125$).
 

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Tuning is the biggest obstacle to engine builds for us these days.

If I were doing a build, this would be my philosophy:

If I can get the SVT cams, PCM, and injectors, than that would be my first choice. That car would be able to run indefinitely without a tune. You wouldn't be able to reach 100% capability until you get bigger injectors and tune for them, but it would be the quickest path to being on the road.

If I couldn't get SVT parts, I would stick with the 3.0 cams and the Cougar injectors and PCM. The 3.0 cams are closer to the Cougar cam profile than they are to the SVT cam profile, so the Cougar PCM would be the quickest path to the road. It should be able to run pretty well like that without a tune too, although again, the injectors would be too small so 100% power would require an upgrade and tune.

For the heads, I wouldnt pay anyone to port and polish them. Years ago, I did a detailed spreadsheet of everybodies dyno charts both here and on the Contour site and I saw no evidence that P&P'd heads got better numbers than unmolested ones. I MIGHT port out the exhaust side of the heads a little bit myself to match the header flanges, but I wouldn't spend any money on it.
 

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1999 Cougar V6 MTX
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Sorry, this is just not true.
Even if you subscribe to the debatable theory that those bolts all need to be replaced (which the engine build manual does NOT require) there are still better options than ARP.
When you realize that the ARP "kit" isn't even the right size fasteners, and that drilling out holes, and adding larger nuts is required for the parts they send, than you can easily just assemble your own kit of the same parts in grade 12.9 (grade 10.9 for the oil baffle plate) for under $100.

Replacement block to bulkhead bolts
bolts 18-22$.77 ea (x5)
$3.85​
Bolts 1-4, 17$1.08 ea (x5)
$5.40​
Bolts 13-16$2.10 ea (x4)
$8.40​
Bolts 5-833.19/meter (x1)
$33.19​
Bolts 9-1218.43/meter (x1)
$18.43​
M8 nuts for 5-8$.12 ea (x8)
$0.96​
M10 nuts for 9-12$.21 ea (x8)
$1.68​
$71.91​
If you can access 10.9 or better studs then yeah go for that route, I couldn't secure anything like that semi-locally at the time but you still have to drill holes in the windage tray because the studs for those are smaller than what goes into the block for the crank mains.
My only complaint with the ARP kit is that yes the nuts provided are small so use of additional hardware is required to secure the windage tray & I think oil pickup tube, but it's okay because the 8 or 10 nuts times two of a 3lb windage tray isn't strength critical - but getting them all level and adequately clearing the crankshaft is.

I wish I had better access to new Ford crankshaft main cap bolts to find out for myself but they may permanently stretch once torqued. We ordered up new rod bolts because the manual said all the bottom end hardware is one-use only (I will dig through my manuals to find this for the collective, it was either our 95, 97, or 99/00 Ford shop Manual that stated this even though I don't think the mains actually stretch) so we ordered a full set of genuine Ford rod bolts (most affordable route was buying a set for the 4.6 V8) and I took 2 of the extra bolts then torqued down one rod on the crank with them. Measuring them before and after revealed that torquing the OEM rod bolts (that were 9.9?) to spec stretches them about 1/16th of an inch so after finding that I was relieved that we just went and replaced all the rod & main cap hardware too.
 

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The rod bolts are TTY. Those are the only ones though.
 
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