[Guest]

Grand River Ohio?

I am getting ready to make a road trip to to drop off the turbo kit to get degitized (blue printed) and have the complete kit CNC mandrel bent and coated. I am also thinking of having them do one kit in all stainless, do you guys think it would be costworthy to make it out of stainless?

Thanks for your time!
S. Nathan Brown

 

[Sled]

RE: Grand River Ohio?

Isnt that not good for a turbo due to brittleness or something? I dont know much about metals and stuff but I see cast iron manifolds ussually I think. I dunno.

How can you keep spending money on this? If you really have that much money to piss away can I have some? After all the crap surrounding that turbo I wouldnt want anything to do with the cougar, the turbo, or anything else.

Good luck- I have no answers. (by one kit all in stainless do you mean just the plumbing or EVERYTHING like the turbo itself, plumbing, manifold, and whatever else there is??)

 

[gyger]

RE:Grand River Ohio?

I may be wrong on this but I don't believe you could ever make a
turbo out of any Stainless Steel.

CNC mandrel bent and coated

he's just talking about the tubes and MAYBE exhaust parts.

If I was you Nathan I'd ask the Professionals that are making
the kit what they think because if you are basing your decisions on what we
say......:cover: :ugh:
Good luck

 

[Guest]

RE:Grand River Ohio?

Originally posted by: Sled

How can you keep spending money on this? If you really have that much money to piss away can I have some? After all the crap surrounding that turbo I wouldnt want anything to do with the cougar, the turbo, or anything else.




LOL.....Well, have you heard the term "to make money you must have money". R&D can cost alot of money when you are not yet bringing in money. But i believe going the route that Itsturbo and select others, are not a good way to build a strong base for a performance store/garage. I beleive doing the prototype correctly to begin with is the right way to go. I have NO dought in my mind that this kit will work great....as long as the proper engineering goes into it. Just to keep your minds at ease..im not the engineer

Mandrel bending is really the best way! No welds to worry about! Stainless is just too expensive after some research. I love hearing other people's opinion on these types of things Sled. Have you ever worked next to an engineer before? They ask questions.....alot of them. They gather data and find the best solution.

Thanks!

 

[OSUStallion]

RE:Grand River Ohio?

I was checking on some WRX performance parts places and thier Up pipes and down pipes were stainless. But I agree that should atleast ask the proffesionals and see what their opinion is.


However, I am guess that this car will never see winter conditions so you may not have to go with stainless.


Tony

 

[racerx]

RE: Grand River Ohio?

Ok, I am glad to see someone taking the initiative to create a turbo kit. But I have spoken to Terry Haines and from he tells me, and believe me, hes REPUTABLE as well known to the CDW27 crowd, you better upgrade the internals AND the fuel system to handle any kind of moderate gains in HP. From what he tells me, the Duratech ISNT built for any kind of forced induction. ****ty rods and pistons account for that. If you like, I can link you to the forum he frequents and answers questions in. To make money with a turbo duratech, you must forst build a reliabl,e duratech that can handle anything more than 3 to 5 psi of boost. Just ask Craig or James what happens when you try and run 6 to 8 psi of boost on any daily driven car. it goes POOOOOFFF

 

[Guest]

RE:Grand River Ohio?

I wouldnt advise anyone to boost past 6psi. Craig blew his motor? Thats a subject that has no ending when it comes to StreetFlights kit. I've seen alot of pics from James' blown motor and see NO weak pistons or broken rods....just the case of detonation. Plain and simple that car blew because of this. Mainly the fact that they cannot get past the initial start of the stock soft rev limiter. So if inadequit fuel is thrown in on that......you get detonation.

 

[gyger]

RE:Grand River Ohio?

I've seen alot of pics from James' blown motor and see NO weak pistons or broken rods

really where did you see these?

Nathan the internals are sinter (IIRC) forged and it's not the same as "forged" internals
I do believe that is our weak point when boosting.
StreetConcepts
09/26/2003 11:18:33 AM

My engine blowing up was not the fault of street flight or bad tuning it was more along the lines that it surpassed the strength of the stock internals. I have a motor being built now with 9:1 compression and will retail the T28 turbo for now. I have nothing but good things to say about Street Flight. The main reason kits have taken so long to build is b/c he is doing them all himself b/c the companies he's tried to use to fabricate the piping has been too expensive and would raise the cost of the kit or they were not willing to do them in small batches of kits like 5 or 10 at a time. I have the utmost respect for Keith and Chris at Street Flight and know what it's like in a small business atmosphere trying to meet the demand of the public. I ended up at over 5k miles on the turbo and never had a single problem until the end when it started misfiring and showing a compression loss on #5

 

[racerx]

RE: Grand River Ohio?

Thank You Mike. Just for you NAY I will include a quote from Terry himself from the fordcontour.org forums.
QUOTE:
"For those who do not know,a few facts about stoc Vs aftermarket forged pistons etc.If you intend to 'boost', s/c,t/c or run 'high' CR's you should read on....
The stoc modern pistons are hypereutectic...which has the following 'plus' points...tighter piston to bore clearences...high Si content which makes the piston harder and more scuff resistant...it also helps withstand higher temp & pressure BUT....its material density less than forged units ...this means it can take heat and pressure but its ability to conduct that heat away from the piston is less.Forged pistons have a denser material and less Si,Si in 'hyper pistons makes them brittle and less resistant to detonation.Example the piston crown temps of an aftermarket forged piston will be down by around 100deg F due to improved conductivity of the material....Rings...on t/c-s/c engines the ring positions and dimensions of the ring lands have to be changed to reduce the top ring exposure....stock pistons are a major risk in a t/c,s/c or modded engine running high CR's......the det will cause a 'high speed' det,which....by the time you hear it ,will be too late.....enter the 'China Syndrome'..or 'Core Meltdown' for those who didn't see the movie!.....with care and again study your materials before you commit to mods that you 'think' are just bolt ons..... "
EndQuote....

 

[gyger]

RE:Grand River Ohio?

Mainly the fact that they cannot get past the initial start of the stock soft rev limiter. So if inadequit fuel is thrown in on that......you get detonation

The rev limiter works as explained
"The stock programming has them 50 rpm apart. Fuel first then spark. Just spark cut is bad"
this from a person I have learned alot from.
When you hit the rev limiter the fuel is shut off then the spark stops almost imediately.
I have hit the rev limiter while racing I have never NEVER heard detonation.
Our internals just aren't made for the extra psi.

 

[Guest]

RE:Grand River Ohio?

Originally posted by: racerx
Thank You Mike. Just for you NAY I will include a quote from Terry himself from the fordcontour.org forums.
QUOTE:
"For those who do not know,a few facts about stoc Vs aftermarket forged pistons etc.If you intend to 'boost', s/c,t/c or run 'high' CR's you should read on....
The stoc modern pistons are hypereutectic...which has the following 'plus' points...tighter piston to bore clearences...high Si content which makes the piston harder and more scuff resistant...it also helps withstand higher temp & pressure BUT....its material density less than forged units ...this means it can take heat and pressure but its ability to conduct that heat away from the piston is less.Forged pistons have a denser material and less Si,Si in 'hyper pistons makes them brittle and less resistant to detonation.Example the piston crown temps of an aftermarket forged piston will be down by around 100deg F due to improved conductivity of the material....Rings...on t/c-s/c engines the ring positions and dimensions of the ring lands have to be changed to reduce the top ring exposure....stock pistons are a major risk in a t/c,s/c or modded engine running high CR's......the det will cause a 'high speed' det,which....by the time you hear it ,will be too late.....enter the 'China Syndrome'..or 'Core Meltdown' for those who didn't see the movie!.....with care and again study your materials before you commit to mods that you 'think' are just bolt ons..... "
EndQuote....

Well i do appreciate your time in explaining that. I do know very well how our pistons are constructed. And i also know our pistons are better equipped than the Mustang 4.6L pistons and they are boosting. I realize you guys are going by one or two cougar problems, but your basing that as "our motor cant take boost" is ridiculous. Hello.......how many have a S/C, don't recall a blown motor there. How can you guys calculate Street Flights injectors being adequate fuel? Try calculating again what size injectors we supposed to have....it actually comes out to 41.999 lbs. I do foresee a few probs with idle (which i think what Street Flight ran into, then just switched to a smaller injector to get rid of the idle and low rpm problem). But that will be dealt with by Pro-M in Detroit. I haven't bashed Street Flight, im just pointing out the details that were overseen.
If you know Mr. Haines, then ask him about the crutch..

High speed det? Detonation is detonation.

If you are not ready to deal with problems that could occur with putting a turbo on......... then its not your cup of tea.

I had a couple emails from James about his car and HOW it blew. He said they purposely blew the motor on the dynometer. They had the PSI over 12. That was their test on the internals. NOW......given James can talk alot so take it with a grain of salt. He had sent me few angry emails a few months back about the "only west coast boosted Cougar". If i find the pictures of the pistons in the next few minutes i'll post them......

You may want to go back and reread what Exigent and DeamonSVT had to say about our ignition.

Thanks, Nathan Brown

 

[Guest]

RE:Grand River Ohio?

I have about five more of pretty much the same thing.

Does anyone know the size tubing used in Street Flights kit. Correct me if im wrong...they use a T28 Garret?

 

[racerx]

RE: Grand River Ohio?

Well, I guess you are an engineer that worked ON the CDW27 platform.

 

[Guest]

RE:Grand River Ohio?

Lol...no your taking me wrong. As long as ive been reading these forums i've become to understand our motor. Mainly from people like DeamonSVT. Now when it comes to the ecu, limiter im still learning. We dont have the easiest programming...which is obvious. Im not bashing any other company because they have been putting a market out there for our car.

Like i said a few times, im not the engineer. Im here listening and asking alot of questions. Ive been under alot of cars, either fixing them or designing performance parts for them ( non forced induction). Im not a schmo that talks **** constantly.....people have been raising the :bs: on me and when it came to me posting what they thought was BS....they shut up. My background and the huge mechanical and engineering support could/will make this company successful....down the road. Start with the strong base and move on.

 

[racerx]

RE: Grand River Ohio?

The engineer comment came from the fact that you sem to think you know more than the ENGINEER i.e Terry Haines, that WORKED on the CDW27 platform and knows the intricacies of the motor and its internals, I tend to believe him. If you have questions, I suggest you "pick" his brain and learn more. I am learning everyday and have come to the conclusion that it isnt worth boosting our vcars until internal work is done.

 

[Guest]

RE:Grand River Ohio?

Im sorry...stating the obvious makes me a smart ass/know-it-all. Give me a break son. To need to know as much as him is not needed.....to make a turbo kit.

Your learning everyday that our cars arent made for boost......ummmm say what? Stop and think for just one second. Do you really think our motor is weaker than a H22 motor? And just think, that motor has 11.1 compression (give or take, its been awhile). But people are boosting them to 8-9psi. Since when has someone blown their motor with a S/C....or did you not want to comment about that. You have no reason to say what you say about our Cougars handling boost. Your basing everything with ONE persons Cougar.....or maybe two. If the Honda boys thought like that there wouldnt be any boosted rice out there. They got over their hurdle by the correct TUNING. They dont use chips....period. Hondata is what they use, and its hands down the best tuning equipment out there.

Again....im enjoying this conversation. Im not trying to argue, just stating the obvious.

Just curious...what do you see wrong with this Turbo manifold. Its something that we are fixing right now. Maybe Terry would know.

Later, Nathan

 

[racerx]

RE: Grand River Ohio?

ITs obvious to me just how much of rude person you really are. I state some facts from an expert and you just have to be rude about it . I reserved any comments about you from all the BS I have read from you until now. As far as I am concerned, and a few others I might add, build your little turbo kit, tune and and THEN come back to us and tell us how foolish we all are. I dont have the numbers on just how many SC'd 2.5 there are, I do know of one, and his is reliable, yes, but all other "boosted" contours and cougars I have heard of havent been as lucky. As for your little analogy to an H22 motor, well, its a Honda, there is aftermarket out the ass for it and you can build monsterous NA horsepower from it. The big difference is that those motors are not a POS from the factory. They dont starve themselves for oil if driven hard through a right hand corner at high speed. The major difference between an H22 motor and our "wonderful" duratech is the fact the if you want 300 HP you dont have to completely gut the motor and basically start from anew. Honda, you throw a set of pistons at it, a header, and a few other less costly parts and you can make 300hp reliably. Just ask James what it takes financially to build high horsepower numbers that will be reliable.

Back to my issue with you. Ever since you started this talk of your turbo kit, it has been just that, TALK. Put up some numbers, some dyno plots, some INSTALL pics, not some pics of a turbo and a few pipes. When/If I ever see this kit, I will eat my words. I hope for our sake (cougar owners in general) that you arent full of BS. But until the time when you actually show up at a meet, or at cougarfest, or post some REAL proof of these accomplishments, I will call BS.

One final thing, I showed nothing but respect and courtesy towards you at first, just stating facts as they have been presented to me and you feel the need to be rude about things.

Edited By Moderator as to remove certan words.

 

[gyger]

RE:Grand River Ohio?

I don't want anymore drama but come on dude..... I'm just so tired of the countless questions and then when people
with knowledge of our motor tries to inform you that you are wrong about something or have been misinformed
suddenly they are being a "haters". It's been over a year and so far and we've just recently seen a picture
of a turbo and one manifold with some piping. Even though the post was Called Turbo Kit is Done FMIC!!!
Good luck with the turbo kit let me know when you are ready to race me down the 1/4.


And it seems weird you are selling all the parts you will need for a 300+hp cougar
such as the Stage III Clutch and the front mount intercooler you just put up for sale the other day.

 

[Sled]

RE:Grand River Ohio?

Whooooooohoooooooo!!! I'm not a moderator anymore! :banana:

This is weak. Ive supported Naynay's rights before but now that I dont have to be official and unbiased I have only the facts at hand to look at.

1. There was a post that claimed the turbo was done and had a front mount aftercooler. Fine, yay for you....except...apparently it's NOT done. Period.

2. Brian and Mike- I love you both but seriously you might wanna take it down a notch- its not proper and there is no point to it. Let the motor blow or work. I personally think my coug will be long gone before this kit comes available and is anwhere near reliable (and driving around one weekend or one month or 6 months without failure does NOT mean it is reliable).

If this turbo finally gets on a test vehicle I would hope to see at least 6-12 months of test time and 20,000 miles before it is sold to the public. THAT is a good base to work from and is the only ethical way IMO. Making a kit, dyno testing it then shipping them out the following week is just plain irresponsible; not that you claim to be doing this but you seem really eager to post every little development and make it sound like its ready for production. Dont jump the gun- do it right.

I cant believe I just posted on this topic again...I am soooo disappointed in myself right now :banghead::flushed:

 

[Sare]

RE:Grand River Ohio?

Naynay,
If you post in a forum with a bunch of car heads asking questions, you will usually get a response about what your talking about, aka. the unseen turbo. Also you asked what was wrong with the Turbo manifold that you posted a pic of, I personally think there are too many seems on it for a turbo kit.

Everyone,
I would like to say that everyone doesnt need to get all huffy with each other. :grouphug:
If someone wants to put a turbo on I say let them. If stuff goes wrong, then it went wrong. If it works it works. We can only learn from our mistakes.

So Naynay, forget what people have to say. Turbo your car and have fun.

Thats all I have to say.. Later Kiddies.