[Seawulf]

Leibler and I have been conversing a bit in PMs about some things and I think it would be a good idea to post them here and to further discussions on the board as opposed to in PMs so this info can be avaliable to everybody. I asked him if it would be ok to post our PMs and he said ok. Here they are.


leibler

Seawulf,
You like the Focus SVT pump over the stock pump in our cars, right? I think mine is dying and while I have the car on blocks the next month I think I'll replace it (along with everything else).

BTW, here's my post on the pump:
http://www.fastcougar.com/forums/messageview.cfm?catid=5&threadid=90690



Seawulf
The Contour SVT fuel pump is a more direct bolt in since the Contour and Cougar share the same chassis and drivetrain.

It does take a little modding to makeit fit but it's a common fuel pump upgrade on the Contour forums and costs around $75.



leibler
Lee,

I have two question for you.

1 - when you go to larger injectors do you have to upgrade your fuel pump or will the stock one still work?

2 - I talked to Pro-M and they can do a meter for me, similar to how they did yours, but they said the following:

"Yes we have a 70mm for the Focus. My only question to you is that these meters would be 6-pin and I was under the impression that the Cougar was still a 4-pin. Although, if you are sure on the calibration and specs, we can match anything for you."

Ours does appear to be a 4-pin. How did you deal with this problem?

- Adam



Seawulf
The reason you get larger injectors is so you can run the larger injectors at the stock fuel psi. 42lb/hr injectors will give you twice as much fuel at 45psi as will 19lbs. So you shouldn't have to run a different fuel pump unless the stock pump can't keep up with the fuel psi. So you could go ahead and swap in a Contour SVT pump, but you won't know for sure until you're boosted if you need to.

My MAF is a 6 wire MAF. If your MAF is a 4 wire then...I don't know. Are you sure yours if 4-wire? The obvious way to tell is to look at the MAF is to count the numbers of wires comming out of it. How are you going to tune the car? You may have to get a stock ford oem 4-wire MAF off a mustang and have your tuner figure it out.



liebler
You're right - 6 wire on my car as well. I looked at a few other Cougars over here and all the Zetecs I checked have 6 wire.

And thanks for the fuel pump info.

Lee,

Keith at Pro-Flow wants to know if you have your flow sheet for you rMAF. He said if you coul de-mail a scan of it to me, he could make me a copy in just a few minutes.

Just wondering



Seawulf
I don't have the flow sheet anymore. I got what Turbo Tom recommended, but he's since gone into more detail on what it is. The new SCT tuner software has values for stock oem MAF calibrations so you can just select a type of MAF from a chart, so he said this on the Focaljet:


Quote

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I dont talk much about tuning so i didnt give some of our hard work away but this new tuning is coming out and is so user friendly ,,I have allways calibrated the mass air to a code of COB30 for 42`S this is what we use in out kits

What COB30 is a ported "recalibrated" Mustang Cobra mass air set for 30LB injectors this with our ability to change the transfur functions makes the range on both the injectors (1-100%dutyclcle)and the mass air (o-5 volts)very close

Tom

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[Afterhours]

Interesting discussion.........

The difference between a 4 wire MAF and a 6 wire MAF is that the 6 wire MAF has the Intake Air Temperature (IAT) sensor built into the MAF. The 4 wire MAF has a seperate IAT sensor.

I think there are two seperate issues when modifying the MAF.

1) A larger sized MAF (70mm....etc) allows for increased airflow into the engine. This reduced intake restriction would make a bigger difference at higher CFM flow rates......allowing the engine to take in more air than would be possible with the stock MAF.

2) The MAF sensor outputs a 0-5 volt signal to the PCM to indicate airflow into the engine. The PCM uses this information to determine the proper fuel injector duty cycle for the amount of airflow entering the engine. This relationship of airflow to fuel requirements are determined by the data tables stored in the PCM. If you installed larger fuel injectors without any modifications to the stock MAF, the larger injectors would provide more fuel throughout the entire fuel map. While providing more fuel at Wide Open Throttle (WOT), it would basically be running very rich all the time.

When running larger fuel injectors.........some type of recalibration becomes necessary. There are a number of different ways to accomplish this. One way is to get a recalibrated MAF like a Pro-M which is designed to alter the MAF voltage output to reduce the larger injector duty cycle simulate the stock injector during idle and cruise.....with this method, the recalibration is not adjustable. Another way is to use a piggy back computer like the Greddy E-Manage to alter the MAF voltage yet have an ability to adjust the recalibration and the fuel maps. The best way would be to alter the PCM data tables with tuning software. In this case, you would really don't need to change any hardware because the data tables are what determines the injector duty cycle for any given airflow.

 

[Seawulf]

A little more background. Basically, I just threw the discussion out without also expanding on why we're talking about it for those who may not know. Afterhours gave a good post with some good background, so let me just further expand.

The main reason you NEED a new MAF is the stock MAF is only good to around 150-170whp at around 5-8psi, before you run out of room in the voltage range and will hit the 5v fuel cut. It's also of some debate wheather or not we have a fuel cut off when the MAF hits 5v. The first year model Focus had the fuel cut off and later year models are said to not have that fuel cut. I think it would probably be safer to operate under the opinion that there is a fuel cut off, for now.

Irregardless of cut off, at 5v your injectors are at 100% and will give you no more fuel. So if you want to push more than 150whp you need a larger MAF, with a larger injector flow range. The main problem with this is by doing this you drastically change the load values and will increase the timing across the board. When it comes to timing, the ECU looks at the MAF voltage first and foremost and everything else a distant 5th. No other engine parameter has a greater effect on timing than the MAF volts.

Turbo Tom was the first to expand on this on the Focus forms. He said you can't just plug in 42s and a MAF calibrated for them without a chip to redo the timing, and I decided to see if it was true. I plugged in my 42s and a calibrated MAF and could not drive more than 30mph without massive audible deto at 1/4 throttle. I installed a MSD DIS2 programmable ignition and finally pulled enough timing to run but it didn't give me a propper AF as the ECU always thought it was under 40% load. My timing was at a constant 30* advance even at WOT. I ran like that for around 3months, pushing 9psi at 14:1(!)AF and 160whp and 185wtq, before the MSD crapped out on me and I had to switch everything back to stock.

So to recap, in order to push more than 150whp you need a larger MAF calibrated for larger injectors and then you need some way to fix the timing problem associated with that. A piggy back unit will not fix that and will greatly increase the timing if you try to use it to controll larger injectors.

 

[HKSCougar]

Good idea to get this to the forums for some outside input.

I've got a question - what have you guys heard about the SCT package? Do you know if you'd be able to do enough tuning via the software/chip interface to make getting external hardware a non-issue? In other words, using the SCT software, can you make the same adjustments you could using an MSD DIS-2, Greddy's eManage, Apexi S-AFC, etc?

That might be the way to look at going if it will allow enough "tweaking headroom."

 

[Seawulf]

The SCT software is considered the next big thing in software tuning. It's basically a custom tuned chip, that allows you to tune the car yourself. It offers the most user friendly interface and gives you total control over your ECU via a chip or reflash. It is miles above a piggy back computer like the AFC or Emanage. Give them a call. They did a Focus guy's tune, and the base tune they gave him was almost perfect right out of the box. The only question is whether or not they have the codes for our ECUs. There's also the question whether or not the ECU needs to be jumpered. When I went to StreetFlight, they had to jumper my ECU. It's fairly easy, but it's one more thing...

 

[HKSCougar]

I spoke with Pro-M and I will be getting a MAF calibrated to COB32 (like Tom recommended). StreetFlight says they feel that they can do a good SuperChip or DiabloSport for me based on the complete specs for my car and using your program as a reference/jumping off point. Especially if your MAF is the same program mine will be.

So, Lee, is that the same MAF you're running (70mm 6-wire calibrated to COB30)? Just wondering.

 

[1TURBOFOCUS]

Go with the SCT you will be wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy better off

Tom

 

[HKSCougar]

Tom - not a fan of DiabloSport, I take it? Any particular reason why?

Seawulf - so were you finally able to get the guys at StreetFlight to get you all the tuning you need on the chip - ignition timing, fuel maps, A/F ratio, everything? No external control or piggy back?

 

[1TURBOFOCUS]

Im not only a fan but have been doing the new Chipmaster Revolution Diablo for almost a year now and we do the Diablo and the Chipmaster chips both

I told you my concerns as to what and why in an email,,,Use the SCT tune

Tom

 

[Seawulf]

I'd go with the SCT software with the tuning capability. StreetFlight was able to tune my car but it was a tough time on the dyno. They had a tough time with the calibrated MAF, and I didn't have the flowsheet and I didn't know about the whole COB30 thing back then. If they know about the MAF and you save the flow sheet they'd probably have an easier time, but I'd still wouldn't trust them to send a chip though the mail, unless it's the SCT chip and burner. They just don't have enough Zetec turbo experience.

 

[Afterhours]

Originally posted by: Seawulf

So to recap, in order to push more than 150whp you need a larger MAF calibrated for larger injectors and then you need some way to fix the timing problem associated with that. A piggy back unit will not fix that and will greatly increase the timing if you try to use it to controll larger injectors.

Seawulf, I have to disagree with you on whether a piggy back unit would be able to address the fuel requirements. The MAF calibration/fuel maps and the ignition timing issues are two seperate yet inter-related issues. I think it can be accomplished...........any piggy back unit (including a recalibrated MAF) sending false information to the PCM. It makes the PCM believe it's operating within it's design parameters...........yet the actual output is different.

The main problem when using larger fuel injectors/recalibrated MAF's is the PCM itself. Obviously, any massive changes will effect other program data tables, such as the example you gave of the MAF sensor voltage, ignition timing and load values when using a recalibrated MAF and 42 lbs fuel injectors.....which is very true. Recalibrating 16 lbs to 42 lbs fuel injectors is a correction factor of 165%. This would require a massive voltage output modification from the MAF to reduce the fuel injector duty cycle during idle and cruise. A recalibrated MAF could allow for that level of change, but it would be set based on the flow chart programmed into the MAF............and that level of change would definately affect other data tables such as engine load values which also affects the ignition timing tables. A piggy back unit such as the Greddy E-Manage allows for a great level of adjustability of the MAF correction factor as well as three areas of fuel map control. These areas are all user defined. The first is the MAF recalibration which uses the original and replacement fuel injector sizes to calculate the actual correction factor. The second is the fuel injector duty cycle.........and finally there is the MAF voltage clamp and the Manifold Absolute Pressure (MAP) fuel maps which can be used once the MAF output voltage range has been exceeded (under boost).

One of the main problems is the EEC-V PCM is a very smart computer. The Short Term Fuel Trim (STFT) and the Long Term Fuel Trim (LTFT) adaptive features is something that needs to be addressed and dealt with. During closed loop operation, the PCM is monitoring the O2 sensor and is intended to maintain a 14.7 A/F ratio. This feature is designed to adjust for normal wear on componants. The STFT will adjust +/- the fuel injector duty cycle to maintain that A/F ratio from about -35% to +35%. As this STFT adjustment is occuring the fuel trim % adjustments are being stored in the LTFT data tables, as the STFT attempt to return to 0% adjustment. The Open loop (WOT) fuel maps are affected by the LTFT. The data stored within the LTFT tables are used as a modifier to the WOT fuel tables. What this means is that if your LTFT data tables are -20%, the WOT fuel trim would be based on the WOT data tables minus 20% (modified by the LTFT tables)...............you can see where this could be a problem.

With a piggy-back fuel control unit, the goal is to minimize any drastic changes by using both the MAF recalibration and the fuel injector duty cycle features.......this should minimize any affects on the engine load tables which will affect the ignition timing tables. With this in mind, ignition timing could be slightly retarded through out the entire run map, but would really be needed under boost. That could be accomplished with a boost timing retard device....such as the MSD DIS-2 programable ignition controller.

Anyway, just some food for thought.

 

[1TURBOFOCUS]

But why not just use a chip?

Or the SCT self tuner ?

Tom

 

[Seawulf]

A piggy back will not minimize the effects of 42lb/injectors, the minimum needed to run 200whp safely. Once you plug in the 42s the piggy back will have to scale them back the same as if it was a calibrated MAF just to get the car to start. Once that happens the timing is now way off like I posted earlier. Also the whole adaptive strategy of the ECU is why a lot of people say you can't use a piggy back, cause the ECU will eventually unlearn the changes.

The only way it might be possible is if you use the E-Manage like a Fuel Cut Defender and injector controller. That way you stick to the stock load tables, and keep the timing reasonable. Then just use the extra injectors to add more fuel under boost and to clamp the MAF voltage just under 100% duty cycle. The main question there is what size a 5th or 6th injectors to use.

And if you're gonna get a timing box, don't buy the MSD. The J&S Safeguard can do everything the MSD can do and it can also sense deto and retard timing because of that. And for the cost of a piggyback fuel controller and timing box you can buy the SCT chip burner/tuner combo and have total control of your fuel and timing.