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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I was wondering if some of the tech guys here could awnser how well the ol duratec would respond to a small turbo with modest boost say around 5 or 6 psi, and if you could mount this with the kkm intake? It looks like there would be just enjough room to do this, I realize that the tranny and differentals are pretty weak but how about the motor?
 

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T3/T4 60-1
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this duratec motor is one of the stronger ones ford has every put out... for it's size (2.5L) in can handle gobs of power.... no one has ever made a turbo kit for our car although some engine builder dutweiller using 21lbs of boost cranked out 450HP with some head work and forged internals.... at 16lbs of boost they are doing well over 300HP (forget the exact number)... to get it all together you'll need to move the battery and unless you have an MTX i doubt you'll be able to fit all the piping and stuff as the ATX tranny is too large
 

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The same shop i dyno my car at will also build a custom turbo or a custom super charger kit for me. he said one of the keys is to getting a very good engine management system ($1000-$1500) to precisely control the fuel delivery and boost levels for the turbo to prevent detonation. I wonder how many pounds of boost our stock internals can take? 5-7psi? I am so paranoid about my engine blowing up if i put boost to it that i REALLLLY want to wait to get forged internals. But then i will find myself capable of putting out almost 400HP but having a week tranny that wont be able to handle the power...so do i just get a small turbo with very conservative boost with good engine management to see where that takes me? How much HP do you think i would get by going 5-7psi?


Nikolas
 

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T3/T4 60-1
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there is a formula you can use to get approximate HP. You need the current fuel and air rates and the new fuel and air rates with turbo, do the math and you get an aproximate HP, although there are many other variables such as combustion chamber desing, intake runner design, air velocity and such....
 

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Probaly the biggest downfall on the duratec is the small injectors. The SVT ones would work nicely, and then I'd say no more than 8psi on stock internals. After going through supercharging a KL03 (mazda 2.5L in the probe/mx6/626), I learned stock engines can really handle some nice power. The KL03 has a forged crank, and that's all, but it does help. My stock injectors were rated at 231cc/min at stock fuel pressure (43psi). Under raised fuel pressure controlled by a FPR at idle, and a rising rate FPR (FMU) at an 8:1 ratio, I had enough fuel to run 8psi without blowing up the internals. Along with a ported intake manifold and the VRIS butterfly system removed, and then a full 3" exhaust the Paxton SN2000 blower can make some nice hp. One actual dyno was done, makiing appx. 231whp, and something like 240ft/lbs tq. But I had many other mods too, oh and that was at 7psi non-intercooled.

Upgrade the injectors, add a FPR, FMU, higher flowing fuel pump, and some computer mods and/or piggy back comp, and you should have enough fuel to run that boost. The only thing I can't find is enough room to mount a Turbo comfortable...maybe there's some room under there...
 

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T3/T4 60-1
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pgtatx.... a while ago some guy by the name of duttweiler fit a duratech 2.5 with a turbo and intercooler under the hood of a focus which is even smaller then our engine bay, so it can fit, yo'll need to more the battery (given) but it should work if you can afford the custom work.
 

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There is plenty of room if you move the battery to the trunk. If they can fit a turbo V6 in a Focus wagon, then we can fit one in our car too. I know that our crank is forged but the rods and pistons are cast i believe. Crower rods cost $175 each, and I am waiting to hear from JE about some new lower compression pistons that are stronger as well. I know one area of concern is the ring lands on the stock pistons. I dont want to be a guinnea pig for everyone else and test the stock engines limits waiting for it to blow up. Now if everyone wanted to give me some money to get an actual turbo kit built and tested on my car, then i wouldnt have a problem serving everyones needs that way. But you guys can go shell out thousands of dollars destroying your engines, but Im not gonna do that. I want to do this the right way and minimize as much as possible the chances of grenading my engine. I am gonna stop by his shop today after work to talk to him some more....I will have my car in his shop later this year or ealy next year for him to do some head work for me anyways. I want to get an estimate on the price of a turbo kit from him. But at this point in time, a turbo kit on my car is well over a year away......


Nikolas
 
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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
One thing to remember, 2.5 might be strong but the trannies suck, so it doesn't matter how much power you can create if you can't get it to the wheels consistantly.
 

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another reason why we are talking turbos and not superchargers... a turbo puts less stress on the tranny as it dosen't kick in until after you are moving, you'll also have less problems with traction too..... BUT you have a slight lag in power due to turbo lag
 

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<< a turbo puts less stress on the tranny as it dosen't kick in until after you are moving, you'll also have less problems with traction too..... BUT you have a slight lag in power due to turbo lag >>



That's not true...First of all a turbo in most cases will produce more power than the SC which will run through the Tranny. A SC does have lag, it's called parasitic lag, due to the fact that the SC is belt driven right off the engine. Lag is decreased, and the power curve is much smoother than a turbo, but if you were to rev both cars to 3000rpm...one fitted with a SC and one with a turbo of equal power are you saying the SC will put more strain on the Tranny, I think not. Yes wheelspin is a little more of a problem with the SC since parasitic lag on a roots type SC is around 1000-2000RPM and on a Centrifugal can be as much as 3000RPM, since it it theoretically a belt driven turbo. Most turbos that would be used for these cars as big as a T4, but a nice T3/TO4E or T3 Super 60 would achieve max boost somewhere from 2500-4000 RPM's...And would produce some nice hp and torque.

Also remember it's not the HP that kills the tranny, it's really that torque, and a Turbo produces much more torque than a SC will. Look at many turboed cars, and SC'd cars...the Torque numbers in the Turboed cars are close to equal to the HP or greater than the hp...whereas most SC'd cars prooduce much less torque. And there's where the tranny gets beat on.

I'm not trying to fight here...but there is a debate, an ongoing debate on whether a belt driven Supercharger or an Exhaust driven supercharger (aka Turbo) is better and which type of each is best. I like Superchargers since you can feel a rush of power increasing smoothly throughout the RPM's...but a Turbo is almost like NOS where you have little power, then it kicks, and say bye bye to your clean underwear.

I know a company in Washington State that did a custom Turbo job for a probe buddy of mine. He put down almost 240whp and equal torque numbers, with just headers and exhaust at 7-8psi. He ran a [email protected] in stock tires...He's running a Garrett T3super60 turbo. And he paid around $4k total for pretty much everything. And the batter didn't have to be relocated for him. and if you've seen a probe's engine bay, it's really tight in there too.

But I have to say, a SC is pretty much a bolt on, and a turbo is a whole project. Both take tuning, but installwise, a SC is really really simple.
 

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I believe the formula to estimate power with a turbo or blower is (14.7 + Boost in PSI) / 14.7 * current horsepower.
 

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<not trying to argue>

the reason i stated that a turbo would put less strain is because the largest amount of strain on the tranny is at launch... with a S/C you have the power right there while launching as the lag is much less than a turbo, in a turbo you'll get a launch somewhat comparable to your engine wihtout turbo but by the 60' mark you need to check your underwear cause that turbo is not smokin....
 

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regardless of what anyone says about the Vortech, Im going with a custom Turbo setup when i have the money saved....but after talking with PuckPuck, I am gonna have to wait for some beefed up drivetrain stuff to come out for us...cuz i want to get crazy with this thing...like the Beast that you all read about... I am pricing all the parts to duplicate what Duttweiler did to that other V6 and it isnt as expensive as you would think.......but i doubt i will as high on the boost as he did, but prolly be around 15psi or so...good for 300+ HP and TQ.....If Honduhs can do it, then we can to...just build the engine the right way and make sure it is tuned, and beef up the tranny and shafts and all that other crap, and you will have one hellllll of a fast little car....im jizzing all over the place just thinking about it....hearing that BOV hiss as i scream by the enemies......



Nikolas
 
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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
What I wanted to do was get rid of the tranny and get a new one a stronger one with a more agressive shifting, Id like it to be like a auto/manual if that is even posible, there is a tranny company some on on here was posting about, I cant remember the name off the top of my head but the person had some tranny work done for a probe they specialize in ATX's, I like supercharger Idea better but the only one that is out right now, (I think its the vortech?) has a tendancy to either blow enjines or eat itself, and I know that they dont do superchargers for ATX's I have pletnty of time, 5 years, thats when im done paying and my warnety wears off this, my car has to get me through pharm. school before I drop seriuous cash into it and take the reliablity risk. untill then just simple bolt-ons.
 

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ATX specialists: Level Ten in Hamburg NJ...The best. I have personal and non-personal experience with them. They did some parts of my ATX in my Probe. They have trannies that are holding over 1000hp plus torque to match. They do Auto's only, but it will cost alot. If you did choose to get some of their parts like a High Stall Torque Converter, and a Recalibrated Valvebody, you'll save a good 0.7-1.2 sec. off your 1/4 mi. times...It'll reduce the drivetrain loss from the ATX to equal you up to the MTX, and firm up all the shifts to decrease the shift loss time. You'll be able to launch at a higher RPM (3000 in my probe), and have a lot less drag in the beginning.

The Problem with any aftermarket Forced induction upgrade is making a tranny that can handle it. Surprisingly enough, the engine should be fine, but it's the trannies that die. Synchroless trannies would be nice, since the synchros begin to get eaten away under the stress. The Housing of most MTX's are weak, and under the excess heat and power can easily crack...and if you miss a shift say goodbye to your engine. I've seen some numbers for custom trannies for any car, and cars in our range to handle atleast 500+hp and equal torque can cost in the $10,000+ range, but I have seen numbers as low as $6000 too, and I have to say, that's crazy. But, be happy with 275hp and 275ft/lb tq, and the tranny should be fine...a Preformance clutch would help greatly, along with a LSD. But one note...don't get a clutch that grabs too hard. People say that it's better to have a clutch that grabs real hard...too bad it rips the $hit out of the tranny itself. Slipping the clutch a little will focus alot of the heat and wear into the clutch, and gradually to the gears themselves, so a clutch with slight slippage would help greatly, and also reduce wheel hop....

and puck puck...it's ok to argue with me, I like debating, it's the only way to learn things. But if someone finds a turbo kit, pass it along, otherwise I'm gonna have to make my own (riiiiight)...
 

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Yes that is a turbo...but it's jammed in there. If you look the distributor was moved from behind the engine to the left side...Who ever did that must have been crazy, there's gotta be a better way to mount that. The heat that must build in there must be amazing. You'd need hood vents and a hood scoop for that...
 

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Yup....that is the Turbo Duratec built by Ken Duttweiler in a Focus Wagon...If you took that pic to someone, they should be able to position your own custom turbo setup in a similar fashion....and combined with the pics in the following posts, you can duplicate what he did....the cost to you for the engine and turbo alone will be around $7000-$8000 inluding all parts and labor...then you need a new clutch and Quaife too...and prolly a stronger tranny to hold all that power..... you might be able to run 7lbs of boost on the same turbo instead of the 20+ they were running and get a very good engine management unit like a Haltech, and your stock internals have a good chance of lasting...but the Haltech costs another 1400 by itself...However, you will be very close to 300HP at the crank, which should be more than enough to satisfy your power needs...and you will save about 3000-4000 on engine mods, plus you might not need to get the Quaife or a stronger tranny, thus saving you another $2-3000+ but a clutch would be in order....


Nikolas

sorry for them being a little blurry...had to cut the size down...you can still read the text though....
 
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