What'd they think was going on there, some kind of day spa?

[NorCalCoug]

Woah, wait.

Trust the government to know who is and isn't a terrorist?

This is the same government that accidentally carried a live nuclear weapon over the continental US because they forgot paperwork.

The same government that purposely infected black men with syphilis to test drugs.

The same government that performed irradiation experiments on the San Francisco Bay Area.

The same government that the PEOPLE WHO FOUNDED IT TOLD YOU NOT TO TRUST IT AND PUT LEGAL MECHANISMS IN PLACE TO KEEP THIS KIND OF **** FROM HAPPENING, AND TOLD YOU TO REVOLT IF THE GOVERNMENT DID THIS KIND OF ****.

I mean.

Seriously now.

You should never give the government the power to arbitrarily decide who is or isn't a terrorist and should be detained without their civil rights, and then trust them not to pick up whomever they want.

[MOMO]

Originally Posted by thousandlegs

I know, gang, I apologize. It's been a bit weird for me lately and the forum has kind of been a place to have a good read and laugh and I was just caught off guard. I now it's a forum etc etc...

I didn't mean to get up in arms. I've had a good chat with Rich {in the past} and I revere his opinion...guess that's what set me off. I like the folks on here. Even bbox has his merits.

Wait, you dont have to apologize at all! You just have to understand where im coming from. You see, i dislike injustice of any kind. Sure im very angry that the terroists attacked us for certain reason and i dont want another attack to ever happen again. And i understand the governments concern regarding future attacks and the safety and integrity of American soverign state. But the whole concept of "preemtion" as pushed by the bush administration have some major flaws in them. Instead of opening a dialogue with the terrorist, (oh wait, we dont negotiate with terrorists) and maybe find out why they are doing what they are doing (oh wait, we already know that too.) we just round up "potential" terrorists in some unlawful ways (extraordinary rendition, for example) or any way possible for that matter, and detain them without any rights whatsoever. To me, this is a very slippery slope toward complete police state, and that scares the **** out of me. Our country was founded as a republic where each individual has certain rights. When our government starts to take that away, (even from the most hardcore crimininals and foreign nationals) Then we are heading toward something that all of us will not like.

This is why you need to inform yourself, Thousandlegs.

[MOMO]

Originally Posted by NorCalCoug

Woah, wait.

Trust the government to know who is and isn't a terrorist?

This is the same government that accidentally carried a live nuclear weapon over the continental US because they forgot paperwork.

The same government that purposely infected black men with syphilis to test drugs.

The same government that performed irradiation experiments on the San Francisco Bay Area.

The same government that the PEOPLE WHO FOUNDED IT TOLD YOU NOT TO TRUST IT AND PUT LEGAL MECHANISMS IN PLACE TO KEEP THIS KIND OF **** FROM HAPPENING, AND TOLD YOU TO REVOLT IF THE GOVERNMENT DID THIS KIND OF ****.

I mean.

Seriously now.

You should never give the government the power to arbitrarily decide who is or isn't a terrorist and should be detained without their civil rights, and then trust them not to pick up whomever they want.

How dare we revolt? If we do, we are classified as a "domestic terrorists" and will be sent to Gitmo too. Militia?? forget about it. Nevermind we have a right to assemble but if there are guns involved, yep, "domestic terrorists" again.

Isnt it funny that the view changes when it comes to these "resistance against established or hotile governments" are concerned?
For example, French resistance during WWII were viewed by the French people as heroes, while Germans considered them terrorists.

Palestinian freedom fighters are heroes to the Palestinian people wanting their own soverign state as promised by U.N, while Israeli and the rest of the world consider them terrorists. Did you know that Israelis carried out more "terrorist" acts during their quest for soverign state then any palestinian group has?

[branchedout]

but, its also the same government that gave you the right to bear arms, is it not?

[ND4SPD]

Originally Posted by branchedout

but, its also the same government that gave you the right to bear arms, is it not?

I thought the right to bear arms was something 'given' and protected by the constitution... not the government?

[BigBalledOX]

Originally Posted by branchedout

but, its also the same government that gave you the right to bear arms, is it not?

What does that have anything to do with ANYTHING in this thread? What, because the government does something right it should get a free pass on the **** it does wrong? Yeah, THAT makes sense.

[branchedout]

it was more of a friendly jab at norcal to counter his rant about all the things our government has screwed up on - it was not particularly relevant to the issue at hand.

[branchedout]

Originally Posted by ND4SPD

I thought the right to bear arms was something 'given' and protected by the constitution... not the government?

semantics, you silly canadian!

[MOMO]

Originally Posted by branchedout

but, its also the same government that gave you the right to bear arms, is it not?

unfortunately, people in power now thinks that the original constitution is just a "God damn piece of paper" and would love to have it done away with.
Fortunately for our founding fathers hind sight, it is pretty hard to do so.
Bush sure did a great job of hacking our bill of rights but hopefully, the damage can be undone.

It is amazing to me that our constitution has stood the test of times for this long. Lets hope that it stays that way.

[NorCalCoug]

Originally Posted by branchedout

but, its also the same government that gave you the right to bear arms, is it not?

You don't understand the difference between the Government and the rights granted to the people by the constitution.

The Constitution is the document by which the government was founded- the Constitution is an agreement, so to speak, by which the collective peoples of the United States of America allow themselves to centralize their governance. The rights granted in the bill of rights, such as the right to bear arms, was granted BEFORE THE GOVERNMENT WAS FOUNDED, and was NOT GIVEN TO YOU BY THE GOVERNMENT, but instead was SECURED FOR YOU AND PROTECTED FROM GOVERNMENT INFLUENCE BY THE FOUNDING FATHERS WHO WROTE THE CONSTITUTION.

You may wish to re-take your highschool US Government classes, unless they've started teaching people that the Constitution was written by the government, and that "rights" are "given" to us by the government.

No.

Rights are rights as freeborn people of this planet. The government didn't grant us any rights, the government didn't create the constitution.

The constitution created the government. The constitution granted the bill of rights to protect you FROM this government.