Anyone with Xcalibrator...

[michcougar]

Need help tuning my xcal for optimal gains.
I went to the drag strip best previous times were 15.65. i have since added headers and the xcal program on 87 octane with raised rev lim. and can only get a 15.60 now. Mind you it was a hot and very humid day compare to first time, but u would think i would do alot better with headers and xcal.
What do you guys set your spark? WOT a/f? other setings? :banghead:

[Blackcoog]

You can't just change your Xcal when ever you want. You need to get to a dyno and have the car dyno tuned with it. Then you leave it alone until you do something else to the car. Without a wideband sensor you can't change things as you could run too lean and blow the engine up.

[TrackCat]

you changed the rev limit?? why???

[michcougar]

I changed the rev limit to see what i could do. It wasnt a huge raise all i did was put it to 7000.
So i should just set it at the whatever octane and leave the other settings?
No need to play around with it?

[CbOy2000]

Maybe u need a more aggressive tune with 91-93 premium octane. When i got my xcal2 they said they could add more timing than with 87 and hence gain more power.

You should also get an intake, exhaust, and svt lite before you do the retune if you dont already have that stuff.

[michcougar]

I havent played with the 89 or 91 tune yet cause i only had 87 in the tank. but im driving it hard rite now to get rid of the 87 and put in some 91 with the 91 tune.
i already have intake headers exhaust and svt lite.

[CbOy2000]

Oh ok, i just checked ur cougar db page too. What i suggest is you fill up the next tank with 91oct and then program your car with that tune but do not change any of the adjustability settings on the xcal2. Then whenever u get a chance go to the track and run it and see if u get better times.

Besides that the only thing you can really do is what others have said and go get a real dyno tune to show that your getting every ponie u can.

[michcougar]

Ya that will be my next move, dyno time.

[michcougar]

Update:
So i went out again, set the speed limiter to 60mph to see if it was working properly and it did not shut down at 60mph. Is it possible that it isnt programing properly or maybe not the rite code? I didnt change anything else except the speed limit on the car this time.

[michcougar]

Anyone?

[warmonger]

What do you want us to say? You don't need us to tell you if it works or not do you? Obviously if you can go faster than 60mph then it didn't work.

On the other hand, no one I know of has dropped the speed limiter to 60 before so we don't know what will happen or even if it is possible to drop it that low and have it still work. Maybe try different settings like 80, 90, 100mph, etc. and see if it does start working.

If you are trying to see if it is making changes, try lowering the rev limiter instead of the speed limiter.

[michcougar]

On the other hand, no one I know of has dropped the speed limiter to 60 before so we don't know what will happen or even if it is possible to drop it that low and have it still work. Maybe try different settings like 80, 90, 100mph, etc. and see if it does start working.

If you are trying to see if it is making changes, try lowering the rev limiter instead of the speed limiter.

Thats all im looking for is some helpful hints.

[RodneyBur]

you could also change the fan settings to turn on at a lower temp. My came on after my switch installation and knew it was working. Both fans come on at same time now at the lower temp.

[michcougar]

What temp do you recomend? for low and high?

[warmonger]

What temp do you recomend? for low and high?

STOCK, or close to stock settings. What is the point of lowering the fan temps?

You MAY and I emphasize MAY keep the engine a few degrees cooler during hot weather with the fans running constantly. However, cooling capacity is determined by the radiator. Then you also compromise the gains you get by loading down the alternator and sucking more engine power/gas to turn the alternator at the higher load. Then you have the cooling fans running almost all the time which will shorten their lifespan as well. Finally, you reduce the cooling efficiency of the radiator system, again causing the fans to run all the time because heat transfer is greater when the temperature difference between the radiator temp and the outside air is greater.
Meaning 215 degrees on the radiator and 100 degree outside temps transfers heat faster than 190 degrees at the radiator and 100 degrees outside temp. The rate of cooling is exponential. There are other reasons but this will give you a good amount of information to decide if you really want to run the fans at lower temps.

If you lower them, my recommendation is about 218 for the high speed and about 208 for the low speed.

[michcougar]

Enough said!
Thanks warmonger

[warmonger]

No prob. I want to clarify when I said that you reduce cooling efficiency bey lower fan temps. You don't reduce the efficiency really, you just don't let the system work to its full potential and make it work less efficiently than it could.

[RodneyBur]

I meant to lower the fans to see if the xcal was working. That was the point of the thread wasnt it?

[DemonSVT]

I want to clarify when I said that you reduce cooling efficiency bey lower fan temps. You don't reduce the efficiency really, you just don't let the system work to its full potential and make it work less efficiently than it could.
You should keep right on clarifying... :tongue:

Look at it this way. Running the fans is nothing more then adding/creating airflow through the radiator. You are still relying of the efficiency of the "cooling system" to exchange the extra heat out. In other words you are increasing the "systems" potential by adding airflow that is not there. This increases the system's heat exchanging potential and the radiator's efficiency.

Either way we both will agree that if the cooling system is not efficient enough it will never cool down to the point you want it to reach. That would be an inefficient system. However I have no problems keeping the engine temperatures where I want them to run so therefore I have a very efficient cooling system. I am maximizing both my cooling system's potential and also creating the strongest engine powerband. A cooler running engine (within reason) is free octane, that never changes. If you can tune for it, KEY WORDS, taking advantage of free octane is highly recommended. :cool:

[RodneyBur]

can you clarify what you did to your cooling system?

[warmonger]

[/b]
You should keep right on clarifying... :tongue:

Look at it this way. Running the fans is nothing more then adding/creating airflow through the radiator. You are still relying of the efficiency of the "cooling system" to exchange the extra heat out. In other words you are increasing the "systems" potential by adding airflow that is not there. This increases the system's heat exchanging potential and the radiator's efficiency.

Either way we both will agree that if the cooling system is not efficient enough it will never cool down to the point you want it to reach. That would be an inefficient system. However I have no problems keeping the engine temperatures where I want them to run so therefore I have a very efficient cooling system. I am maximizing both my cooling system's potential and also creating the strongest engine powerband. A cooler running engine (within reason) is free octane, that never changes. If you can tune for it, KEY WORDS, taking advantage of free octane is highly recommended. :cool:

This must be your secret to 101mph traps speeds.... ;)

I left some wiggle room for the fact that IF you can justify reducing fan turn-on temps through tuning then maybe you are keeping it efficient. However, we just will never agree fully on this point.

[warmonger]

[/b]
You should keep right on clarifying... :tongue:

Look at it this way. Running the fans is nothing more then adding/creating airflow through the radiator. You are still relying of the efficiency of the "cooling system" to exchange the extra heat out. In other words you are increasing the "systems" potential by adding airflow that is not there. This increases the system's heat exchanging potential and the radiator's efficiency.

Either way we both will agree that if the cooling system is not efficient enough it will never cool down to the point you want it to reach. That would be an inefficient system. However I have no problems keeping the engine temperatures where I want them to run so therefore I have a very efficient cooling system. I am maximizing both my cooling system's potential and also creating the strongest engine powerband. A cooler running engine (within reason) is free octane, that never changes. If you can tune for it, KEY WORDS, taking advantage of free octane is highly recommended. :cool:


BTW, through a little searching I found this link: http://www.centuryperformance.com/coolingsys.asp

Some relevant portions of it:
Surprisingly, the greatest factor that will increase the radiator's efficiency is the difference between the coolant and cooling air temperatures. This can only be done by raising the temperature of the coolant. Doing this permits the use of a smaller radiator (now you know of another reason that newer vehicles run at higher temperatures, yet have smaller radiators than vehicles of the past). In a performance application we are constantly trying to find other ways to improve the radiator's efficiency to compensate for the added heat generated from the higher horsepower output. Installing a larger radiator, a radiator with more rows, larger tanks, higher fin count, or better design is where we usually end up. But, we can also improve the airflow efficiency by adding a fan shroud, electric fans, and higher output water pump. Aluminum radiators are the choice of most racers, and should your first choice if you must purchase a new radiator.

Therefore, allowing the radiator temp to achieve a higher temperature before the fans come on improves the rate of heat transfer to the atmosphere and improves cooling efficiency of the system.

So I am further clarifying for a third time. The cooling system has the same Potential to cool but heat will transfer faster if the radiator runs at a higher temperature. If you run the fans all the time at say 200F, the radiator temp may never get to 228F, the fans will ALWAYS be running and you will transfer the same amount of heat out of the engine over a longer period of time.
So I don't see running the fans at a lower temp as doing anything other than wearing out your cooling fan and alternator faster.
I'd prefer to let nature work FOR ME with higher temps and heat transfer than to fight nature by expending more energy to run the fans all the time.

[DemonSVT]

If you run the fans all the time at say 200F, the radiator temp may never get to 228F, the fans will ALWAYS be running and you will transfer the same amount of heat out of the engine over a longer period of time.
So I don't see running the fans at a lower temp as doing anything other than wearing out your cooling fan and alternator faster.
I'd prefer to let nature work FOR ME with higher temps and heat transfer than to fight nature by expending more energy to run the fans all the time.
The engine makes much more power at 200F then it does at 228F. Considerably so actually. I'd much rather have the engine running those 28 degrees cooler (using your example's numbers).

However my engine hovers nicely in the 185-195F range (during normal ambient temps) and does not make constant use of the cooling fans. Matter of fact the only time my cooling fans ever run are in stop & go traffic in the summer or after coming to a stop after spirited driving. What do both of those have in common? Yes, you guessed it, lack of airflow through the radiator. Therefore the fans increase the potential heat transfer ability of the cooling system and the engine does not Heat Soak! While moving my engine's cooling system is more then up to the task of keeping the engine cool. The fans are just used for low "ground speed" supplementation of airflow through the radiator.
Also if you want to talk about the stock settings. Using the stock setup the car is programmed to heat soak and kill timing. Not ideal in the least for performance but it probably keeps the warranty claims down and more tellingly the emissions as well. I will stick with my tuning approach on this aspect. No surprise there either. :cool:

On another tuning note. The fans are computer controlled and the PCM knows the VSS input. Talk amongst yourselves...

[warmonger]

:tongue:
Who cares. We all know you're wrong anyway..... :evil:

[CbOy2000]

:tongue:
Who cares. We all know you're wrong anyway..... :evil:

I don't agree with that because DemonSVT has a good point. Before i got the Xcalibrator2 my temps would easily reach 225 degrees and would run horribly slow from take off. Now that my car has lower fan temps it stays at or below 200 degrees and runs like it should and not pull timing.

With the on device data logging i can see that on the highway my temps hover around 186-192 degrees and in city driving its anywhere from 193-200 degrees on a 90 degree day. So just because the fans come on early doesnt mean your sacrificing cooling efficiency for the bad. Its actually helping the car from retarding the timing and running slow.

[warmonger]

Thats fine if its what you want but it could just be a placebo. Anyway it's your fan and your alternator, so go for it.

See what you don't know is that you have to also change the engine coolant temp multipliers to improve spark if you are running these cooling fans to keep temps lower in order to get anything out of it. Did you do that with your adjustibility on your xcal?
In stock form there is absolutely no spark added at 200*F coolant temp, the multiplier is 1.0. Hmmm how about that **** eh????

at 190*F in stock form you might get 0.5* spark timing added in because of coolant temps. Intake air temperature is where the money is. If you can keep it cool then you make a lot of power.

What Demon probably did is increased his ECT spark multiplier for the 185-190*F temp ranges so that he got a few whole DEGREES of spark advance, then added in his lower fan temps to keep the engine at that temp at idle in stop and go traffic. This could give more power but as discussed, not a compromise I wanted to make.
Remember ECT 10* cooler may not even affect the intake air temp noticeably and it is the intake air temp that is the biggest determinant of knock resistance outside of fuel octane. If the engine could tolerate more timing in the modified form from above then probably it could handlemore timing in stock form too.

[CbOy2000]

Correct, i actually retarded the spark a whole degree on the whole table from the base tune above 2000rpm. This helped compensate for the lower temps, so that the knock retard sensor would not remove any added timing at or around 200 degrees.

But its definitly not a placebo on take off when your coolant temps are 225+ because the data log on the knock sensor value shows -4 or more to the timing when i tested it.

[warmonger]

Correct, i actually retarded the spark a whole degree on the whole table from the base tune above 2000rpm. This helped compensate for the lower temps, so that the knock retard sensor would not remove any added timing at or around 200 degrees.

But its definitly not a placebo on take off when your coolant temps are 225+ because the data log on the knock sensor value shows -4 or more to the timing when i tested it.

sorry but this doesn't make sense to me. You want to leave the spark where it was....maybe add a degree or two. The knock sensor is independent of the coolant temp values as well. You are only hurting yourself this way. The ECT multipliers are not something that you can change with the end user adjustibility, you need the PRP or a tuner to do it for you. Also the object of the cooler engine coolant temps is to allow you to INCREASE the timing. :confused:

I don't want to come off like a dick so I'm going to tell you how I'd approach the problem in order to help you. I am a bit blunt sometimes so don't take it bad when I tell you you're going at it all wrong right now. So this is to help you:
If you want to make power with running the fans cooler, you'll probably need the 180* thermostat AND turn on the fans lower. This will circulate the coolant at full speed and the fans will help keep it cool. Also throw some Redline water wetter. It is good stuff and will improve heat transfer.
Next, using your end-user adjustibility on your xcal (unless you have the PRP??) start jacking up your timing 1-2 degrees at a time during hot weather until you get a little ping or start to loose power. Then back it off till it stops, and then 1 more degree for some safety. Do this with premium fuel or it won't be worth it otherwise. This all assumes you can't change the ECT multipliers.

Getting the coolant to stay in the 180-185* range will get you a higher spark adder multiplier and you may net 4 or 5 degrees total advance under the right conditions. However, come emissions time the colder engine will not perform as well if you do cold start testing or if the car isn't good and hot when you go in for the test.

Without a PRP there is not a lot more you can do, and I already think that it isn't worth much. I think the 185* thermostat will net you the best results and although I've argued that it has some drawbacks, I will agree that it can help with power and overall do more performance good than harm.

The best tuning will come with adjustment of the air fuel curve from wideband data, followed by timing advance using the timing tables so that you can actually raise timing where the engine can take it and leave it alone where it can't.

[CbOy2000]

Yea sorry for sounding stupid on this subject, lol. I was wrong about the knock sensor and timing. What exactly does the spark retard and advance, change on the Xcalibrator 2? Is it the spark as a global multiplier??? I was using the on device data logging for this which only gives 90secs of data which isnt that useful.

I did get a better datalog of my car last night though by using my friends laptop. I have done what u already suggested when i did a coolant flush by installing a 180 degree thermostat and adding redline water wetter. My temps never exceed 201 degrees with the lower fan temps.

I can send u the datalog in excel format if u would like.

I also understand that you are not trying to sound like a dick, im just trying to better understand the small tuning aspect of the xcal2 adjustability. The PRP would be nice but i wont be able to get it now.

[warmonger]

Well, it sounds like you are on the right track.

As far as I can tell the timing adder only adds timing to the final result. In the code there is a global mulitplier and a global adder.

It would be really foolish to put a global multiplier in the hands of someone inexperience on an xcal2, so I'm assuming the timing control is just a global adder that you can affect.

Now that is a good thing but remember, at low rpms you may only be running 10* of timing and when you add 3*, you are adding 33% more spark. However as rpm goes up and spark advance increases, that 3* of advance may only be 10% total advance. So this is just telling you how you could suffer from ping/knock in middle to low rpm at full throttle and still be fine at higher rpm.

It is really designed for the end user like yourself to throw on a few degrees of timing for when you run octane booster. So honestly this is about the limits of the xcal2 timing adjustments.

It would be much better if you could increase the spark multipliers for coolant temp. There are three tables to do this. One table has a scalar number associated with an engine coolant temp; and as I told you earlier this number is 0 at 200*F coolant temp and gradually goes up as coolant goes down. THatn that number is multiplied by the multiplier; this multiplier is something like (0.08) or so. Anyway the product of the two together is degrees of spark and is added to the borderline knock table value.
For example, the stock table at 185* coolant temps would for example be something like this: 20*0.8

See the following tables below. The top table is load vs. rpm and the bottom is the amount of advance in terms of coolant temp. The two together yield the spark benefits of running cooler engine temps.

In the stock table a coolant temp of 180* would fall at an advance rate of about 3.22 (vs. 130*F yields around 10) and that 3.2 is multiplied by the value corresponding to your load and rpm. The highest value in the whole table is about 0.08. .08x3.22=0.257.

So there you have it, 0.25 degrees advance is all you are going to get for you trouble with the coolant temps being lowered. There will be some small advantages to intake temp being a tiny bit cooler from the fans running all the time, but not much. So I think 1/4 of a degree of advance isn't worth the time. This is why you have to change the advance or the multiplier to really get anything out of this.



spark_retard_ect_multiplier (stock)
RPM
Load 1280 1984 2992 4000 5008 6016
0.898438 0.08008 0.08008 0.07031 0.06055 0.05078 0.05078
0.699219 0.06055 0.06055 0.06055 0.06055 0.05078 0.05078
0.500001 0.05078 0.05078 0.05078 0.05078 0.05078 0.05078
0.300781 0.0293 0.0293 0.0293 0.0293 0.0293 0.0293
0.101563 0 0 0 0 0 0

Spark_retard_for_ect

ECT Advance
254 -60
230 -40
210 -20
200 0
76 20
-20 100
-256 250

[CbOy2000]

Ok thnx for clarifying that for me. I've mostly learned everything I know from the SCT forums, and i guess the best thing to do is get a dyno tune after i get headers.