Tuning in a few weeks!

[nandalora]

I've had the 3.0L done know for over a year and it's never ran perfectly. At the end of the month I'm finally getting an Xcal2 and full dyno tune. I'm hoping to surpass 230whp and before the pull I'll be getting an Accel EDIS coilpack, Magnacore KV85 wires and replacing my LIM with a port-matched one w/o IMRC. I'm also gonna run her up to 7500rpm and to see where she tops out. Finally to my question, are the #19 injectors and stock Cougar MAF sufficient for flow or should I use #21 (http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=ACC%2D150621&N=700+400020+4294925239+4294870762+4294908331+115&autoview=sku) or #24 (http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=ACC%2D150624&N=700+400020+4294925239+4294870762+4294908331+115&autoview=sku) Accel injectors and maybe a 75mm MAF? I know the ProM MAFs are a nightmare to tune, but I've got one and this would be the time to put it on there, if any.

Also, I won't be able to drive the car untuned without the IMRC, will I? Maybe the tuner can send me the Xcal2 with a "ballpark" tune to get me there, then dial it in on the dyno?

Thanks,
Nick

[RodneyBur]

My car was running ok without the secondaries. I used both the stock ECU and SVT ECU. The engine died every once in a while when coming off revs such as stopping at an off ramp from the highway.

[mond12345]

Why are you going to change the coil pack? Our ignition system is the best system we have on the Cougar, why mess with it or waste the money?

I will look forward to what you dyno since i have a very close 3L build to yours and mine will be done in Aug. Good luck!

[nandalora]

The tuner I talked said the #19 injectors won't flow enough for my setup. He said to get #30's? No one uses these, everyone uses #24. Are #30's too big??? Check out the emails below......


I asked:

I'm looking for 230whp, do you think the SVT (#19) injectors can flow enough or should I upgrade to a #21 or #24 Accel injector?

From: Pete <sales@fordchip.com>

The 19s won't flow enough. You really need at least 24s.

I asked:

Ok, well I found Accel #24's (http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=ACC%2D150624&N=700+400020+4294925239+4294870762+4294908331+4294 908396+115&autoview=sku) at summit racing $199 for 6 They also have #30's (http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=ACC%2D150630&N=700+400020+4294925239+4294870762+4294908331+4294 908396+115&autoview=sku) for the same price too.

I'm sure the car won't run on the stock computer with those injectors. It already has trouble with the #19's. If I had to install these and drive to your shop for the dyno run, I would need some kind of tune in the ball park just to run. Do you think you could send me the Xcal2 a few days ahead of time with a close tune that would make it drivable to your shop? That seems like the only option.

Pete wrote:

Get the 30s. Yes, we can work something out for a base to tune so you can drive it.

[TrackCat]

estimated horsepower =
times by BSFC = .45-.5 for naturally aspirated
horsepower times BSFC
then divide by # of cylinders
for Example 250HP x .5 = 125/6=20.8lbs injectors add 20% so you will not overwork injector it comes to 25lbs injectors.
whats your flowrate(fuel pressure)?

[RodneyBur]

First, I would save the cash and just get the SCT chip. I got mine with a base tune for 300. The company said they would tune it for 100 an hour with an estimated two hours needed. The X-cal is really only needed if you plan on making changes to your tune. If you do plan on making changes with your tune then you will need a good Air-fuel sensor or take it back to the dyno and let them tune it again. Doesn't make sense unless you really want to make changes in the future by yourself using your own equipment. In that case why get a dyno tune in the first place..

Second, do some research on the injectors. A lot a people are already using the 19lb injectors and only a couple people are using the 24lb. The 2001+ 3.0 injectors are only 19lb btw. There is plenty of info on CEG about the injectors. 19lb was said to be fine on any NA 3.0 set up and anything above that is only need for nitrous, supercharger, or turbo charger. I beleive instigator was using 30lb on his FI 3.0 so why would you need something that big on a NA set up? I myself went with 24lb because I thought its a possibility to get a NOS set up or something similiar after I get tired of the NA 3.0. Maybe even the TK supercharger which may cause me to have to upgrade. You can even check the dyno results thread and look at their air-fuel ratio, hp rating, and injector sizes to compare to your set up. Save the money and keep those 19's in for now.

Lastly, I drove my car without butterflies (but with IMRC hooked up), using 24lb injectors, and all other things in my sig using the stock ECU. The check engine light did not come on after I cleared the initial rich codes. No other codes came on after that. Not even IMRC information which surprised me since it had no butterflies in it. I drove it at least 15 miles that way. Hell I even removed the IMRC, switched to an SVT ECU, added the SCT Chip, removed the SCT chip because of a problem with my EGR sensor, installed the chip again while running it each time to see the differences and still no check engine light (except the EGR sensor issue from getting wet). I really don't see a problem with removing the secondaries, keeping the 19lb injectors and driving it up the dyno place. I may stall out a little at lower rpms which is what I experienced.

The best thing you can do though is get the chip / x-cal programmed with a base tune (injectors, IMRC delete, lower o2 delete), make the changes to your set up and then install the chip / x-cal. I wouldn't pay extra for a base tune if you plan on getting a dyno tune from the same place since they would have to do that anyway.

I will say that I did notice a difference going with each stage of ECU info. From stock ECU to SVT ECU to SVT ECU with chip to SVT ECU no chip no IMRC. The changes were that it rev'd faster and stuttered a little less. I still have a little hesitation (mostly under 3k) and probably still have an air-fuel ratio on the rich side especially at lower rpms.

The biggest problem I see for you is getting the SVT cam info and TB position sensor info correct on your tune. You may want to ask the tuner about the differences in cam timing map tables and see how he plans on correcting the set up for optimum efficiency. I don't know much about it so can't say for sure how easy it would be to change it. I am thinking they he may need the original SVT Cam tables and a TB pos sensor table. If anything getting this info before hand and giving it to him will save time( $$$$) on the dyno. I am no expert on this so you may want to ask around on CEG which is where I got the info from.

[Blackcoog]

Stick with the 19's that injector math is incorrect. I have 220fwhp and have never had a problem. Our injectors run at 45-50 psi which I think is a bit higher than those injector caculations are designed for.

[TrackCat]

always use the math and you will be ok
MATH IS YOUR FRIEND

[TrackCat]

I learned alot by tuning my ecu myself ,and I took classes @ efi university. If you later want me and you to tune your car I'll talk to the guys here in Chicago and you can come down here. I can show you tuning basics while we tune your car on a dyno.

[nandalora]

Thanks for all the help. I thought 30lbs was too big. But when I use trackcat's eduation I got 27lb. (270HP x .5 = 135/6=22.5lbs injectors add 20% so you will not overwork injector it comes to 27lbs) or (270HP x .45 = 121.5/6=20.25lbs injectors add 20% so you will not overwork injector it comes to 24.3lbs) I used 270bhp cause it's about 230whp. So the #24's sound like the way to go?

RodneyBur: Thanks for the long post, but the first two paragraphs were a waste as I am NOT A NOOB. Aside from that I already have an SCT chip and I hate the idea of it. Also, you said the chip was $300 and a re-tune would cost $200. This tuner I've been talking to said the tune AND Xcal2 would cost me $500. So it sounds like I've got a good deal here. I just hope he know's what he's doing. He said he's tuned many Contours and other Fords.

I'm still a little iffy about rmoving the IMRC. Is it really worth it for the gains? And is it really possible to COMPLETELY tune out the IMRC to have no ill effects or CELs?

Thanks again

[Blackcoog]

Read this: http://www.contour.org/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=3L&Number=379094&page=&view=&sb=5&o=&fpart=all&vc=1

Quote from link: "19# injectors are more than sufficient for any 3L swap we've seen up to about 225-235 wheel horsepower!"

And another quote: "19's are sufficient because of the high stock fuel pressure that the contours use."

I still say you should save your money and stick with the 19's. You'll have a tough time getting up to 230whp anyway. To date David Z has been the only one to get their 3L up past the 230whp range and he was still running 19lb injectors.

[ilovemycar]

To date David Z has been the only one to get their 3L up past the 230whp range

Not true...Timeless420 got there with his 3L. http://www.contour.org/carprofile/carprofile.php?a=display&uid=1385

[nandalora]

Thanks Blackcoog, I would really like to save myself the $200 too and use the #19's. I was just going by what the tuner said and the fact that trackcat's equ confirmed it made me think twice. Plus, it seems like a lot of people are using the Accel #24's, like Fordrule.

Do you think it's worth while to remove the IMRC and EGR, when looking for max power? I don't want to sacrifice drivablity for 5hp.....and bragging rights. But if the IMRC and EGR can be COMPLETELY tuned out and run perfectly, I assume it will be worth it as far as HP numbers?

Thanks

[nandalora]

Was he using 3.0L cams or what? I've always been baffled by those weak numbers for a fully built 3.0L IF it used SVT cams.

[ilovemycar]

Was he using 3.0L cams or what? I've always been baffled by those weak numbers for a fully built 3.0L IF it used SVT cams.

He used SVT cams. It was not fully built...well it didn't have rods. And why are you surprised at the "weak" numbers?

#1 it was on a Mustang dyno
#2 he had a crush bent 2.5" exhaust on at the time of the dyno
#3 he had a stock SVT UIM not a EH'd one

[nandalora]

He used SVT cams. It was not fully built...well it didn't have rods. And why are you surprised at the "weak" numbers?

#1 it was on a Mustang dyno
#2 he had a crush bent 2.5" exhaust on at the time of the dyno
#3 he had a stock SVT UIM not a EH'd one

Hmmm, I was surprised because:

#1 I didn't know it was on a Mustang Dyno
#2 I didn't know he had a cruch-bent exhaust
#3 I didn't know he had a stock SVT UIM

So with those things aside, I'd say it is over 250whp. That's more what I was expecting. BUT reguardless, I'm not concerned with him. The questions I have are about my car. And just for the record he had #24 Accel injectors.

[ilovemycar]

The questions I have are about my car. And just for the record he had #24 Accel injectors.

Ya i know. I was just pointing out the "over 230whp" part.

And BTW...when i do a 3L i already have #24 accel sitting in my garage along with my SVT cams.

And thanks to Brent @ Brenspeed...i already have a tune that will allow my car o start up and run fine with the 3L and 24's in it. :cool:

[nandalora]

Yea, I'm really leaning towards th Accel #24's. If the tuner said #30 and Blackcoug said #19, I can't go wrong with the #24's, right? I just sent the tuner an email bringing up what you guys have said in this post, I'll see what he says.

[nandalora]

Here's what Pete (@Fordchip) wrote:

The accepted rule of thumb is.... No. of injectors x size of injector x 2 x accepted duty cycle = HP

6 x 19 x 2 x 90% = 205

6 x 24 x 2 x 90% = 259

6 x 30 x 2 x 90% = 324

19s will not be enough for 230whp. Ford went to 21s on the 99-up V6 Mustangs because 19s were not enough.

30s are not too big. They are just as accurate at low flow as a 19 or 24. The max flow rating has nothing to do with amount of fuel sprayed at lower demand levels.

If you plan on modding more....get the 30s.

I don't know if those numbers are whp, I assume bhp. So I guess it won't hurt to get the #30's. And if I ever do more in the future (ie: forged internals, high compression, Cat Cams) I'll be set for injectors?

[Blackcoog]

Not to beat a dead horse but his math is incorrect. How was David Z running over 240whp with 19's then? That is impossible based on his math. The injectors in our car run at higher pressure than the regular mustangs out there that the tuners are used to. Higher pressure means they can push more fuel. Eitherway if you have a tune for the larger injectors they will work fine so it won't hurt to go with larger injectors except for the cost of course. :)

[fordrule]

Thanks Blackcoog, I would really like to save myself the $200 too and use the #19's. I was just going by what the tuner said and the fact that trackcat's equ confirmed it made me think twice. Plus, it seems like a lot of people are using the Accel #24's, like Fordrule.

Do you think it's worth while to remove the IMRC and EGR, when looking for max power? I don't want to sacrifice drivablity for 5hp.....and bragging rights. But if the IMRC and EGR can be COMPLETELY tuned out and run perfectly, I assume it will be worth it as far as HP numbers?

Thanks


i haven't seen my car in 6 months now. i have the injectors from the 3L when i built i. they could be the 19 people were talking about, currently i am running the svt 19#/cams from the svtour untuned. when i get home i will take pics of the inj i have and decifer if they are 24's or 19's. sorry about the confusion.

[nandalora]

No prob man. I was just refering to your sig. I thought I remember you saying you picked up a set of Accel #24's.

[RodneyBur]

For some reason I was thinking that you were getting the PRP which is why I said to save the cash and just get the chip. I still prefer the chip over the x-cal since you have the options of stroring more than one tune on it and being able to switch between them quickly.


The 24# Sable/Taurus injectors are light blue (pre 2000). The tan ones (post 2001 I beleive) are 19#. I personally went with the 24# which I picked up a low mileage set off of ebay for around 35 bucks. The 24# fit the return style injector clips while the 19# fit the returnless style injector clips.


Tuning the secondaries out is a little more complicated than just deleting the IMRC. I have that done on my base tune and can still see a difference in the way the car runs below the secondary point. I have confidence that it can be tuned correctly. The IMRC are turned off, but the air, fuel, and timing maps for those RPM levels need to be changed.

[petec]

Hi guys, I'm Pete from FordChip.

The math I gave him is the accepted rule of thumb. Operating pressures can sway the nuumbers up or down.

If you know you are going to make more mods and more power why not go bigger? I have seen way too many guys use small injectors and then when the injectors hit max duty cycle they end up buying the injectors and then paying for more dyno time. Its just easier to go at least one step bigger and grow into them. Sure you can band-aid an injector by raising fuel pressure but as I mentioned if you know you are going to make more power later on just get them now.

Just mho.

[warmonger]

24# injectors are convenient and more than big enough for what you want. Get a tune for them and run them.

[warmonger]

For some reason I was thinking that you were getting the PRP which is why I said to save the cash and just get the chip. I still prefer the chip over the x-cal since you have the options of stroring more than one tune on it and being able to switch between them quickly.


The 24# Sable/Taurus injectors are light blue (pre 2000). The tan ones (post 2001 I beleive) are 19#. I personally went with the 24# which I picked up a low mileage set off of ebay for around 35 bucks. The 24# fit the return style injector clips while the 19# fit the returnless style injector clips.


Tuning the secondaries out is a little more complicated than just deleting the IMRC. I have that done on my base tune and can still see a difference in the way the car runs below the secondary point. I have confidence that it can be tuned correctly. The IMRC are turned off, but the air, fuel, and timing maps for those RPM levels need to be changed.



Rodney, you really need to make sure you ignition wires, coil and spark plugs are all good to go because in my experience 90% of all stuttering issues over the years has ended up being an ignition system problem even though nothing appears wrong with the wires/plugs/coil.

I chased a stuttering problem for four months back in 2000/2001 and near $1000 in other mods later I realized it was a $40 set of friggin plug wires. It is the reason I bought the eManage in the first place and went on a huge research craze to figure this stuff out.

[warmonger]

Hi guys, I'm Pete from FordChip.

The math I gave him is the accepted rule of thumb. Operating pressures can sway the nuumbers up or down.

If you know you are going to make more mods and more power why not go bigger? I have seen way too many guys use small injectors and then when the injectors hit max duty cycle they end up buying the injectors and then paying for more dyno time. Its just easier to go at least one step bigger and grow into them. Sure you can band-aid an injector by raising fuel pressure but as I mentioned if you know you are going to make more power later on just get them now.

Just mho.

We have many cars over the past 5+ years that have been able to set down 200-230 wHP on just 19lb injectors.
Bear in mind that our fuel pressure runs about 45psi at idle/cruise and 55psi WOT. For an injector rated at either 43psi standard or at the old 39psi (IIRC) standard that means that they will act as a larger injector and that the higher pressure has to be taken into account.

The reason I and others argue against going bigger is that in most cases the only guys that make out on the larger injectors are the tuners! They make money to dial them in and most guys still only put down around 200-220 wHP on a nicely setup 3L. The rest of them are below that and those that make it above that have the time/money to setup a more capable system.
Almost everyone who puts in bigger injectors doesn't properly tune for them and end up with more problems, especially when 19lb injectors would have sufficed.
I ran 24's and I never broke out of the 60's% duty cycle on any runs that I tried to log.

Also, I forgot to mention that there has been quite a bit of discussion on our forums about why this engine seems to make so much power with these injector sizes. It has been proposed that the BSFC may be different due to engine design and that it could affect how efficient the engine is at making use of the fuel it gets. I dunno but you can take your pick of reasons.

The decision maker is the wideband O2 sensor and the injector duty cycle. I only change injectors if I'm running towards the lean side with a high injector duty cycle.

[fordrule]

well my injectors if i remember are from a 02 sable block so more than likely they are 19's i just might have been thinking that they were 24's. i know there was a topic on CEG wit hthe PN and everything to decifer it

[petec]

Bear in mind that our fuel pressure runs about 45psi at idle/cruise and 55psi WOT. For an injector rated at either 43psi standard or at the old 39psi (IIRC) standard that means that they will act as a larger injector and that the higher pressure has to be taken into account.

I know... I just like more margin on the 19s and this guy seems serious about more power later on. Just get them now.


in most cases the only guys that make out on the larger injectors are the tuners! They make money to dial them in and most guys still only put down around 200-220 wHP on a nicely setup 3L. Almost everyone who puts in bigger injectors doesn't properly tune for them and end up with more problems, especially when 19lb injectors would have sufficed.
I ran 24's and I never broke out of the 60's% duty cycle on any runs that I tried to log.

In my case I charge a flat fee... So it doesn't cost anymore either 19s or 24s... I don't know why going up in injector size is such an issue for other tuners. I run 60s in my 4.2L V6 Mustang. It came with 21s.


Also, I forgot to mention that there has been quite a bit of discussion on our forums about why this engine seems to make so much power with these injector sizes. It has been proposed that the BSFC may be different due to engine design and that it could affect how efficient the engine is at making use of the fuel it gets.

I'll check his once we have some data. I do agree the Duratecs are a pretty efficient design.


The decision maker is the wideband O2 sensor and the injector duty cycle. I only change injectors if I'm running towards the lean side with a high injector duty cycle.

True, but I have seen how much individual injector control suffers at high duty cycles and it won't be apparent on a wide band that sees all A/F lumped together.

Good tech on this site!


I never have issues with Ford OEM injectors. I have had issues with some of the Accels.

[nandalora]

Well after much pondering, I think i've got a plan.

Like Pete said: I do have big plans for the future, but for now I think the 19lb injectors will do. I'm gonna get the Accel coil pack and Magnacore kv85 wires, remove my secondaries and fill the rod holes with jb weld, remove the egr and get it tuned by Pete. Hopefully see 230whp!

In the future I have plans for a 300bhp (hopefully whp) NA 3.0L!!! I've been talking to Kinger about PnP'd heads for this and I would get a set of CAT cams. Plus other things, but anyway at that time I will upgrade to #24 or maybe #30 injectors. Realistically, it will happen this time next year.

Thanks......comments are welcome

[mond12345]

Good luck my friend and i mean that a in a good way.

[fordrule]

hell ia m shootig for 250 whp NA and it is really hard. is the secondaries removed really going to help out the hp or hurt it?

[warmonger]

.......

I never have issues with Ford OEM injectors. I have had issues with some of the Accels.

:cool: Your reasons all make good sense to me Pete.

I do have a question about injectors though. Something I need to find out.
What do you know about the bosch style injector sold for GM cars as Delphi?

Are they basically identical to the Bosch injectors sold to Ford? I know they will work in place of each other but I guess I wanted to know if a 42# Delphi was the same injector as a 42# FoMoCo injector?
In the spirit of that question, would the injector slopes be the same for those style of injectors?

[warmonger]

hell ia m shootig for 250 whp NA and it is really hard. is the secondaries removed really going to help out the hp or hurt it?

That's really hard to say. No one has proved a gain in peak horsepower due to removing the secondaries. Many people claim improvements in throttle response above and around the secondary IMRC opening point though and that kind of makes sense since you aren't waiting on the IMRC to open for the added airflow.

On the other hand, its proven hands down that you will experience a loss in torque and response well below the IMRC point like off the line and below say 2500 rpm. With a 2.5L this is pronounced. With a 3L this changes the equation due to the higher displacement and depending on the cams and the engine timing.
The "no-secondaries" camp is pretty definitive that you can gain back most of your lost low-end torque with headers and very good tuning to the timing tables. With a 3L there is no loss with headers and good tuning although the SVT cams are inherently weaker in the lower rpm ranges.


The "pro-secondaries" camp (like me) look at it this way. THe system works and works pretty well without a loss in high rpm power. If you spent the same amount of money tuning your engine WITH the secondaries to work at their optimum, put on headers and such, then you would be better off than without. Also, you don't have to spend time/money to unfck the tune from having secondaries before going on to optimize that same tune for best power/performance later on. You've already got a decent factory tune for the system as-is and any money spent on tuning will go towards making more power. Then there are the cirumstantial things like improvements in cruising fuel economy and just basic city daily driving.

If I dare to use my own car as an example, I retained the secondaries even with the turbo 3L. I noticed that off boost driving was much like a normal 3L swap'd engine in throttle response and performance. Above about 3000rpm the turbo showed its character though.
In the final tune before I sold it I was able to make 350+wHP on about 10psi and 92octane right after driving it 100 miles straight onto a dyno. I was able to pull 25mpg highway, sometimes as much as 26mpg. The real benefit was city driving. I was able to improve my City mileage up to 17mpg when it was being driven nice, and about 16mpg with normal stop light romps. With my old tune from ADC I could never break 13.2mpg in the city :banghead:
If you factor in the price of gas for when you are NOT doing high performance driving then 4 mpg is huge. If you look at my dyno graphs both NA and turbo, you can see that with NA 3L performance no one made a flatter torque curve than I did though many people made more peak torque. And no one has really blown me out of the park on turbo performance either. The 400 wHP 2.5L has nice peak power but when you stack it up against my engine you can quickly see the broader torque curve of the 3L more than makes up for it and actually exceeds it in area under the curve. (Not to mention what it made in power with the new owner finally hitting around 14psi! :tongue: )
Moral of this story is Secondaries ARE NOT a barrier to performance.

With that said there are a few circumstances where it is advantageous to ditch them and just a very few people who really have the capability to dump them and end up with a superior product than if they just left them in.
This would be DemonSVT's cue to jump in!! lol

[nandalora]

Yea, the secondaries are a pretty big question for me right now. I'm having a hard time justifying removing something that is working so well now. I was thinking in the future of removing them when I get the CAT cams (stg 3 or 4), but with the powerband I'm expecting (high end HP) they will have less low-end tq just like the SVT cams. So I may benefit from keeping the secondaries even then with the high-powered, high-RPM, NA 3.0L?

[fordrule]

as of now i think i have done everything i can to her except the 24# inj, 65mm tb and (on fence post) secondaries removal. of cource the xcal2 and the pro racer package.

what is the svt cams comparable to the CAT cams? stage 2 or 3

[mond12345]

I think stage 1 are around the same as SVT but 2 might be close too.

[nandalora]

That sounds about right (stage 1). Hence the reason I'm going to use stage 3 0r 4 :evil:

[dyed4ordblue]

Just make sure you contact the company about what stage would be best for your application. too high and the usable power would be past the rev limiter! Also, the drivablity will be gone because you'll barely hold an idle.

[nandalora]

I've already talked to the guy at CTA a lot and stage 3 or 4 are the max that are streetable, stage 5 is race only!

[dyed4ordblue]

Yeah, thats pretty much what he told me, but he told me that the stage 4 is on the extreme edge of streetability.

[nandalora]

I don't know too much about the general characteristics of those cams, powerband, etc. They are pretty much the only option out there. I know some people on CEG have used them. Maybe Warmonger can enlighten us?

[mond12345]

The power band is going to be all up top for the most part with any of the stages really.

[warmonger]

I don't really know much about the CAT cams stages. They look promising but no one has actually used them and then come to talk about it. The problem is no cam gears to put on them and install them.

[nandalora]

Demon gave me some info, per my PM request. He didn't make them sound very promising to anyone who isn't an SCCA racer. Basically, you lose the low-end tq we all love, don't make power 'till 4000rpm (at best), there's a lot of power to be had, but in a very short/high power band.

[SpookSVT]

Demon gave me some info, per my PM request. He didn't make them sound very promising to anyone who isn't an SCCA racer. Basically, you lose the low-end tq we all love, don't make power 'till 4000rpm (at best), there's a lot of power to be had, but in a very short/high power band.

I don't know if he told this also but another point would be that they don't offer the timing points of the cams, just a generic duration number that doesn't mean much in the way of determining where your powerband is at.

I remember him saying also that the stock SVT exhaust cam was agressive enough to support a heavily modded N/A 3L. It also helped generate the flat TQ curve the SVT cams are known for, upgrading to a more aggressive intake cam would supposedly show good gains while maintaing a flat TQ curve.

I fooled around with dyno2000 software and it proved this point. I eventually made a nice setup that wasn't far off from SVT like duration on both intake and exhaust cams, I just changed the timing points a little bit and it made a huge difference, just like the difference created between SE and SVT cams. The timing points mean a lot.

These cams made awesome power between 5000-8000RPM, but lacked serious lowend TQ. You'd need a pretty heavily worked set of heads and custom manifold to get such power as well. They would'nt be fun for a DD. I also learned that phasing this setup to advance a few degrees greatly enhanced lowend to a point where they MIGHT be drivable. Of course this would require adjustable cam gears. You could either make them yourself or see if Roush or Mountune would ever give you a set. :rolleyes:

Dyno2000 has been proven pretty accurate IMO, so you could see similar results. Higher octane fuel would be required for making big N/A power.

I tried getting in touch with Roush and Mountune but never got any reply. Here's Mountune's website, http://www.mountuneonline.com/acatalog/index.html . Look under Jaguar engines for some awesome N/A 3L engines. Of course they have race cams, direct acting bucket valvetrain, custom rods and high CR pistons, increased displacement, worked heads and ITB's. All the good **** we can't afford, wouldn't be very streetable either.