Titanium valve springs/retainers?

[NorCalCoug]

Out of curiousity, does anyone know of anyone who sells titanium valve springs and retainers for the 2.5L heads?

I searched about but didn't find anything of real value. Thanks in advance. I'm assuming this would be needed for high RPM work, like, say, around 7500-8000.

Also, if you'd like to add any additional considerations for high RPM work, let me know. ;)

[DanG]

How about cams that can actually make power in that range? :rolleyes:

That's on the very top end of the SVT cam power-making range, and that's a ton of stress on the internals- Probably so much so that you'd want forged rods & pistons, and by then, you'd be better off with a 3L.

Why so high? This ain't a torqueless 4-banger!

Out of curiousity, does anyone know of anyone who sells titanium valve springs and retainers for the 2.5L heads?

I searched about but didn't find anything of real value. Thanks in advance. I'm assuming this would be needed for high RPM work, like, say, around 7500-8000.

Also, if you'd like to add any additional considerations for high RPM work, let me know. ;)

[BigBalledOX]

Dan, I know you've got a little of effort in to your beast. Could you pretty please with cherries on top give a nice answer if you have any suggestions? It would be highly appreciated.

[DanG]

There aren't any titanium parts that I'm aware of... The best springs I know of are the ST220 springs, which Kinger can install during head P&Ping. They've seen the other side of 7k on boost in my car, I'm sure they're good to about 7500, but I wouldn't push it any more than that. The cam profile is WAY out by then, even the SVT begins to fall off drastically.

[BigBalledOX]

Thank you Dan! :thumbsup:

[NorCalCoug]

How about cams that can actually make power in that range? :rolleyes:

That's on the very top end of the SVT cam power-making range, and that's a ton of stress on the internals- Probably so much so that you'd want forged rods & pistons, and by then, you'd be better off with a 3L.

Why so high? This ain't a torqueless 4-banger!

I wasn't asking about cams that make power in that range, was I? Did I ask for opinions about that? No. :rolleyes:

I was asking specifically about what is required to ensure a valvetrain can sustain that kind of RPM thrashing. I appreciate the commentary, though, it amuses me to no end to see that these are the kind of responses even a long-time, respected, knowledgable member gets from some of the others on this forum. :rofl:

Think you or somebody else can try answering the question nicely instead of being a jackass on a high horse assuming that nothing good can come of this? :)

Here, let me be more specific without spilling any details.

Does anyone make valve springs and retainers that are suited for high RPM work in 2.5L heads?

What else is required of a motor (3L bottom end) to sustain high RPM without too much risk of damage?

[bensenvill]

are there any aftermarket manufacturers of valve springs for our engine? I wasnt aware of any, but now you have my curiousity perked.

I know very little about our valve springs, but I do have a number of contacts that have done custom spring work for my group in the past [and I believe they do titanium] and I would be happy to put you in contact with them.

[DanG]

Oh, for the love of...

Dude- Calm the hell down... This ain't some newbie you're getting ribbed by. I'm telling you (and everyone) that without cams to make power in that range, it's pointless to rev it that high. Your useable torque comes in much earlier on, and there's nothing (again, with the stock or SVT cams) up where you want to go.

So the "commentary" should call into question your reasoning. But hey, what the hell do I know? :rolleyes:

I answered your question anyway- It's just the kind of guy I am. There are none out there currently, but you can do anything with enough $$$.

I wasn't asking about cams that make power in that range, was I? Did I ask for opinions about that? No. :rolleyes:

I was asking specifically about what is required to ensure a valvetrain can sustain that kind of RPM thrashing. I appreciate the commentary, though, it amuses me to no end to see that these are the kind of responses even a long-time, respected, knowledgable member gets from some of the others on this forum. :rofl:

Think you or somebody else can try answering the question nicely instead of being a jackass on a high horse assuming that nothing good can come of this? :)

Here, let me be more specific without spilling any details.

Does anyone make valve springs and retainers that are suited for high RPM work in 2.5L heads?

What else is required of a motor (3L bottom end) to sustain high RPM without too much risk of damage?

[NorCalCoug]

Oh, for the love of...

Dude- Calm the hell down... This ain't some newbie you're getting ribbed by. I'm telling you (and everyone) that without cams to make power in that range, it's pointless to rev it that high.

Yes, I realize that. I've been here plenty long enough to see dozens and dozens of dyno charts that show this information, on top of actually helping dyno a dozen duratec-powered CDW27 cars. I'm trying to say I'm not an idiot- I shouldn't be treated like one. If I'm asking a question about the stability of the valvetrain in a high RPM situation, it's for a reason. :)

Thanks for the info. If I can't find someone that does Ti springs, I guess ST220 are the best I can do.

[ilovemycar]

I'm telling you (and everyone) that without cams to make power in that range, it's pointless to rev it that high. Your useable torque comes in much earlier on, and there's nothing (again, with the stock or SVT cams) up where you want to go.


Maybe he is getting some CAT cams :cool:

[Rikenbomb]

So what are you plotting and scheming there NorCal?

[GrandMasterKhan]

I wouldnt mind taking my 3.0 to at most 7600 rpms. Should be useful to tach out through the entirelty of 3rd for the 1/4 and throughout 2nd for the 0-60

I beleieve DemonSVT has stated he has taken his engine to those limits quite often.

[1COUGAR99]

If you visit CEG at all you will see a lot of talk about the valvetrain. Demon really put that to the test and concluded that the stock valvetrain is very well built and valvefloat is not an issue with the ST200 springs(162-163 lb/in), the stock springs are 153. He took his motor all the way up to 8100. You don't need to spend the extra money when stock is fine. He now has his redline set at 7500. I recommend reading his site because he goes into great detail about the issues with running at those rpms.

Demon's site is such a wealth of information, he has done so much work and has his results for everyone to see :bowdown:.....everyone should bookmark it :biggrin:!!!!

[NorCalCoug]

I haven't visited Demon's site in a LONG time, and even then it was just to glance at one thing in particular. I'll go have a look.

[DemonSVT]

I ran the stock valvetrain to 8100rpm for 12-15k miles. Bouncing off the rev limiter 1000's of times during testing. The valvetrain performed flawlessly.

My current rev limiter is set at 7400 soft / 7500 hard for daily driving and the engine is there every time I drive it. I have a race tune in position 3 with an 8000rpm hard limiter.

The ST220 valve springs are a slight upgrade over the stock spring pressure. They are a current US part number of 2S7Z-6513-AA but you would have known that if you were serious about doing this type of engine modification.

One thing I will add is the 2.5L engine will eat itself at high rpm because of the lack of oil drains in the heads. DO NOT waste money building a 2.5L engine and just do a 3L engine if you are going to build one. There are many things you need to upgrade when building an engine. Again information you must already know if you are asking about titanium valve springs.
As a foot note a band aid for the 2.5L engine is a 1-2 quart Accusump.

[NorCalCoug]

Thanks for the info Demon. That's a healthy wealth of info. :)

I know at high RPM, proper balance in reciprocating masses can be more of a concern, also better bearings probably need to be taken into consideration.. How about the stock pistons in a 3L? Rods? Which would be the better 3L motor to go with in this case? I know there's some variance in the different years. I can go and search through to find it, though.

So clevite bearings, should the crank be checked/balanced as a precaution, or should it be OK in stock form?

[Logan Motorsports]

Always, ALWAYS get the engine balanced, just to be sure. It's like buying a new oil pump, it's cheap insurance. Engine balancing is critical, and make sure you bring your entire ring set, and rod bearings as well. All those things contribute to the bob weight, but a good machine shop should ask for that anyway, so everything I just said could be very redundant...:rofl:

[1COUGAR99]

The 01+ Stock bottom end can take the punishment. Warmonger had his to around 400 Hp. Follow Demon's recommendations though, Clevite bearings are a MUST. The factory clearances are pretty tight, but should be checked anyway when you have the motor apart. Go that extra mile and you'll rarely have a problem.

[warmonger]

I wasn't asking about cams that make power in that range, was I? Did I ask for opinions about that? No. :rolleyes:

I was asking specifically about what is required to ensure a valvetrain can sustain that kind of RPM thrashing. I appreciate the commentary, though, it amuses me to no end to see that these are the kind of responses even a long-time, respected, knowledgable member gets from some of the others on this forum. :rofl:

Think you or somebody else can try answering the question nicely instead of being a jackass on a high horse assuming that nothing good can come of this? :)

Here, let me be more specific without spilling any details.

Does anyone make valve springs and retainers that are suited for high RPM work in 2.5L heads?

What else is required of a motor (3L bottom end) to sustain high RPM without too much risk of damage?


:crazy:

Wow, the guy may have answered your question with a question, but he pretty much layed it out for you and you kinda mistreated him back.
He is right. No one makes any high end valve stuff for our engines. Unless it is custom order.

Why?? Because demand is low. Normally, everytime someone asks the question it is because some newbie fresh from a different forum thinks that they need them to make power on this engine. After they get the real scoop, they realize that the valvetrain isn't weak and they seek other areas to make their power.
Dan just wanted to give you a little more information as to why you may not need them. But if you want them, then you will be stuck paying dollars.

Here is the other part, the stock valvetrain components are good to 8000 rpm! Yes, it has been done and proven that they can take it that there is no apparent valve float, nothing broken, or abnormal wear. I don't mean the ST220 springs either. I'm not convinced that they are any better than the standard springs, if indeed there IS a difference in the metal.
If it means anything to you, I've been taching out my turbo 3L engine to 7400 rpm under full boost. Although I don't prefer to do it that way very often, I had to see what would happen :biggrin:
I don't think you will have any trouble with 7500 rpm with stock components at all, either rods or pistons.
*note of caution* Above 7500 rpm for long term usage the only reference I've seen is that oil consumption starts to go up, and that is most likely a piston ring issue, not a piston issue by itself, and definitely NOT an issue with the valvetrain components. If you wanted to sustain 8K rpm all the time, I'd look at lightweight pistons with quality rings an maybe rods though they seem to be just fine on this engine. DemonSVT tach'd his stock engine close to 9K rpm and no rods or pistons broke....but that isn't enough proof from just one engine/one guy.
This should answer any question you have on the subject, and any future question unless you change your rpm range requirements.

[NorCalCoug]

Thanks for the answers. So from concensus and from experience from those who have actually spent time in the high-RPM range, it appears that stock valvetrain == okay, stock pistons and rods == okay, but clevite bearings and balanced crank == must/good idea.

I'm waiting for some data back before I figure out the precise power/RPM range, but it's basically something high.

I really don't want to get into too many specifics, I was just looking for some validation on what the stock valvetrain can take, or what upgrades were available if needed. :)

I figured I might as well ask in public instead of PMing a few people so that the information is available for others in the future.

[Rikenbomb]

NorCal are you running aggressive cams or something? From what I can gather you are seeing as how you want to raise the upper end of the rpm range and such.

[YOSLVR442]

well if you are planning on cat cams, the ones i have will live in the mid 7's. i do believe they wont go past 8 without a big lose. the curve is from 4 to 7- something

[DemonSVT]

DemonSVT tach'd his stock engine close to 9K rpm and no rods or pistons broke....but that isn't enough proof from just one engine/one guy.
The only couple of times it saw 9k were not really intentional parts of my testing. The things I do for discovery. :crazy:
However I did run them to 8500rpm and the stock springs exhibited what likely was valve float around 8300rpm. That's why I eventually set my hard limiter to 8100rpm. Even my 2.5L was falling off quickly past 7700rpm anyway. However 7700rpm in 3rd (96mph) was the end of the 1/4 mile for it at the time.

Just like you mentioned and I talk about on my site the oil consumption once you pass 7500rpm is deadly on the 2.5L engine. For that matter about 7200rpm on the 2.5L The 3L has much better oil control at high rpm. However you still incur the increased wear of high rpm. It is very harsh on the rod bearings and the rings.
Just using the formula and basing it on their material strength rating; typical forged steel rods should be limited to 7500-7700rpm. Go powdered metal and advancements in metallurgy. ;)

[NorCalCoug]

After spending a few hours wading through all of the information on your site, all I can say is that having the 2001+ 2.5L will help (well at least the parts that ARE going to be used), and that I will have to look into clevite or federal mogul bearings, or just make sure that despite the powerband the car never sees too high of an RPM. ;)

And no, I'm not planning on cat cams. But thanks for asking, YOSLVR442. :)