Engine Timing

[Logan Motorsports]

I thought that this would be an interesting discussion topic.

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f334/LoganMotor/Ryanstiming.jpg

This is Ryan's timing curve. It should be noted that he has a 3L block with 2.5 heads and SVT intake that still has IMRC's.

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f334/LoganMotor/Jasonstiming.jpg

This Jason's timing curve. He has a complete 3L from an Escape with no IMRC's.

What is very interesting is that the Escape engine produces more torque at lower RPM, and this may be due to the increased timing at lower RPM's allowed by the lower compression and different design. Ryan's engine makes more power at a higher RPM however, and this may be due to the extra timing bump at the point where the IMRC's engage. There is a switch in the computer that increases the timing once the IMRC's open. You may be thinking, "well why not just increase the spark at higher RPM on the escape engine?". Well, I tried that, and the engine did not respond, loosing power. The Escape engine just was not designed for a lot of advance. As a result Jason's engine will run fine on 87 octane, while Ryan's prefers 93.

[RodneyBur]

wow... very interesting. Did Ryans engine have SVT cams? If it does would this be the cause for the higher power at the higher RPMS?

Can you post the Dynos / AF ratio for these two also? I was lining up my LIM on my heads (which are very nearing completetion) to ensure everything would match up. I started looking at the lower intake and noticed there was something blocking my ports. Some people call these the secondaries I call them a waste of space!! I decided to remove them and will be triming the LIM alittle also.

Would you recommend people to keep them out or to remove them. This is a heavily debated topic over at CEG, btw. So many different opinions.

Link to Thread... scroll down a little (http://www.contour.org/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=3L&Number=1140214&page=&view=&sb=5&o=&fpart=all&vc=1)

[timeless420]

That is very interesting and opposite of what the guys at ADC claimed a while back when tuning a full oval port 3L with SVT cams (209fwhp). They claimed the oval port 3L's loved timing and actually took the base timing table from a 3L engine and used that as a base vs the timing table from a 2.5L SVT motor.

[Rikenbomb]

Are you coming to CougarFest? No seriously.

[J-Man]

That is very interesting and opposite of what the guys at ADC claimed a while back when tuning a full oval port 3L with SVT cams (209fwhp). They claimed the oval port 3L's loved timing and actually took the base timing table from a 3L engine and used that as a base vs the timing table from a 2.5L SVT motor.

jason's 3L is running the stock escape cams.

interesting info DeWayne. :thumbsup:

[Djperico]

jason's 3L is running the stock escape cams.

interesting info DeWayne. :thumbsup:

yes indeed.

[timeless420]

Are you coming to CougarFest? No seriously.

Are you referring to me? If I'm not in Europe I'll consider it.

[Instigator]

i think he was asking dewayne if he was coming......and i second that!!!!

[BigBalledOX]

i think he was asking dewayne if he was coming......and i second that!!!!

I'm working on him guys. Though I have a feeling he's not gonna be too difficult to convince. Crap, he can catch a ride with me if it comes down to it.

What we really need is his dyno . . . :cool:

[RodneyBur]

Time to move cougarfest to illinios???

More specifically to Dewaynes house??

[bensenvill]

well I'll be making a trip over to dewaynes in the next month.

then we'll have a stock baseline to add to this dataset

[BigBalledOX]

well I'll be making a trip over to dewaynes in the next month.

then we'll have a stock baseline to add to this dataset

Keep March 17 open too Terry. Something VERY special's gonna be goin on in South Elgin that day. ;)

[bensenvill]

Keep March 17 open too Terry. Something VERY special's gonna be goin on in South Elgin that day. ;)

well I wanted to get some baseline pulls before I installed everything I have laying around, so march works well also!

[BigBalledOX]

No no. You go ahead and get your baseline pulls in. I'm just saying I'm gonna be back up there on March 17 for retuning.

[StealthyWeasel]

retuning with what:evil:

[BigBalledOX]

GMK HP CAI extension, Mustang TB and 80 MAF, ZEX dry kit.

And one other important piece that's gonna make my kitty fly. But I won't reveal it until the 17th. :evil:

[StealthyWeasel]

thats too long! is it a turb-o-nator:rofl:

[Logan Motorsports]

Woah, got some good response out of this thread! Hey guys....our dyno is PORTABLE.....:) . We took our dyno to the NMRA events in Joliet and Columbus, so if you guys would be interested in having us come to CougarFest, we need to know details as soon as possible!

[BigBalledOX]

Woah, got some good response out of this thread! Hey guys....our dyno is PORTABLE.....:) . We took our dyno to the NMRA events in Joliet and Columbus, so if you guys would be interested in having us come to CougarFest, we need to know details as soon as possible!

As soon as we get a date I'll get in contact with you DeWayne.

[CougarGT]

Keep March 17 open too Terry. Something VERY special's gonna be goin on in South Elgin that day. ;)

I will try to be there.

I want to get baseline numbers on my potential new toy :)

[BigBalledOX]

Whatcha gettin Matty?

[Logan Motorsports]

wow... very interesting. Did Ryans engine have SVT cams? If it does would this be the cause for the higher power at the higher RPMS?

Can you post the Dynos / AF ratio for these two also? I was lining up my LIM on my heads (which are very nearing completetion) to ensure everything would match up. I started looking at the lower intake and noticed there was something blocking my ports. Some people call these the secondaries I call them a waste of space!! I decided to remove them and will be triming the LIM alittle also.

Would you recommend people to keep them out or to remove them. This is a heavily debated topic over at CEG, btw. So many different opinions.

Link to Thread... scroll down a little (http://www.contour.org/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=3L&Number=1140214&page=&view=&sb=5&o=&fpart=all&vc=1)

You can see Ryan's dyno plot and air fuel here http://newcougar.org/forums/showthread.php?t=89594 . I'll work on getting Jason's plots up here somewhere. As for the "secondaries", really those are the IMRC plates, or intake manifold runner control plates. 99% of the time it is a bad idea to remove them, Ford engineers are not stupid and did not put them there for fun. You may see a marginal gain at very high RPM (6000+), but the torque losses down low are not worth it. There are a few exceptions to this rule, most noteably the '96-'98 Cobras and V6 Taurus SHO's. These two cars used IMRC's to improve gas mileage and emissions, but in your case I'd stick with them.

[CougarGT]

Whatcha gettin Matty?
http://www.latebreak.net/matt/06gt1.jpg
:biggrin:

Dealer that is willing to X-plan it, and give me a good trade in on the Mazda :)

I'm sleeping on it, but I'm pretty sure I know what the decision will be!

[Aeglos]

Crap, he just won the drag competition at CF06... jeebus.

[BigBalledOX]

Crap, he just won the drag competition at CF06... jeebus.

Not if he's stock.

[Logan Motorsports]

Now that mustang, well I KNOW we can make that run 10's. But even sticky tires, exahust, cold air, and a tune can put them in the 12's. Watch out! Also, if we are going to come all the way to fest, and there is going to be drag racing.....well we could bring one of our 9 second cars if people want shotgun rides :)

[bensenvill]

I wouldnt say no!

[Aeglos]

Not if he's stock.
That thing STOCK, and it DOES say GT on the side, would own the Cougar crowd. That thing is 300hp STOCK... and it's RWD. No one has 300+hp to compete with that, and a FWD needs a perfect launch to even hope to stay near it. I'm thinking on power alone, he's gonna be owning the track...

This does not take into account driver skill nor mods. :tongue:

Stats care of MSN Auto - 2006 Mustang GT
Engine Specifications 4.6L 300 hp V8Horsepower300 @ 5750 RPMTorque (lb-ft)320 @ 4500 RPMValves/Valve Configuration24/SOHCDisplacement (cc)4606Bore X Stroke (in.)3.55 X 3.54Compression Ratio9.8:1

[CougarGT]

That thing STOCK, and it DOES say GT on the side, would own the Cougar crowd. That thing is 300hp STOCK... and it's RWD. No one has 300+hp to compete with that, and a FWD needs a perfect launch to even hope to stay near it. I'm thinking on power alone, he's gonna be owning the track...

This does not take into account driver skill nor mods. :tongue:

Stats care of MSN Auto - 2006 Mustang GT
Engine Specifications 4.6L 300 hp V8Horsepower300 @ 5750 RPMTorque (lb-ft)320 @ 4500 RPMValves/Valve Configuration24/SOHCDisplacement (cc)4606Bore X Stroke (in.)3.55 X 3.54Compression Ratio9.8:1

By CF it will have CAI, Borlas, and a tune on it. That pretty much puts at it 300 RWHP. :cool:

Now I just need to man-up and sign the papers.

[BigBalledOX]

That thing STOCK, and it DOES say GT on the side, would own the Cougar crowd. That thing is 300hp STOCK... and it's RWD. No one has 300+hp to compete with that, and a FWD needs a perfect launch to even hope to stay near it. I'm thinking on power alone, he's gonna be owning the track...

This does not take into account driver skill nor mods. :tongue:

Stats care of MSN Auto - 2006 Mustang GT
Engine Specifications 4.6L 300 hp V8Horsepower300 @ 5750 RPMTorque (lb-ft)320 @ 4500 RPMValves/Valve Configuration24/SOHCDisplacement (cc)4606Bore X Stroke (in.)3.55 X 3.54Compression Ratio9.8:1

I'm not saying its at all slow. I'm just saying I think I'll be faster if he's stock. ;)

[Aeglos]

Guess we'll all have to come and see!

[DanG]

No one has 300+hp to compete with that

<AHEM!> :disgust:

[BigBalledOX]

<AHEM!> :disgust:

:rofl: Yes Dan? Did you have something to add to the conversation?:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[gyger]

RWD>FWD
That is all!:biggrin:

[DanG]

:rofl: Yes Dan? Did you have something to add to the conversation?:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

<searches Tire Rack for Hoosier racing slicks>

[BigBalledOX]

Now you're cookin with gas Dan. :biggrin:

[nandalora]

I may even have to venture down to Fest for that race!!!

It'd be an interesting one.....

[Nafunu32]

Where is fest this year?

[Instigator]

<searches Tire Rack for Hoosier racing slicks>

im right behind ya buddy:tongue:

[bensenvill]

im right behind ya buddy:tongue:

but I'm sure you wish you were ahead

[Logan Motorsports]

Let's do some clutch dumps at 6000 and see what happens with those slicks.

[StealthyWeasel]

I'll have the replacement disc ready.

[Logan Motorsports]

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[Aeglos]

Ok, you've got the disk, who's got the axles?

DanG, sorry, I forgot. ;) Still, even at 300hp, RWD>FWD. We'll just have to see.

[StealthyWeasel]

FWD sounds sexier. Just say it out loud.. F-W-D. Now say R-W-D. FWD sounds more fluent.. therefore its a better platform.

[Topik]

Lets see the rustang compete on the autocross with jaged,sonza,danG,tnkgurl,and GMK. hehe

[Aeglos]

It'll lose. Mustangs are made for drags, cougs for curves. ;) I keep telling the wife this, but she's fixed on the "quarter-mile at a time" lifestyle.

[RodneyBur]

It'll lose. Mustangs are made for drags, cougs for curves. ;) I keep telling the wife this, but she's fixed on the "quarter-mile at a time" lifestyle.

uhhh ohhhh... here coomes the fast and furious flamers :rofl:

[Aeglos]

Haha! Honestly, I'll tell them to race her. Her dad's a Ford supervisor, and she's very much a Ford baby. She drives an '86 5.0 HO. Her money-winner was an '86 supercharged MR2. All that, and she's from Detroit. I'm not gonna argue with her. :rolleyes:

[CougarGT]

Lets see the rustang compete on the autocross with jaged,sonza,danG,tnkgurl,and GMK. hehe

AutoX is 90% Driver, 10% Car.

I've beat zo6 times before in my stock cougar.
:cool:

Now a GOOD driver behind the wheel of a GOOD car, now thats the winning combination.

[Topik]

AutoX is 90% Driver, 10% Car.

I've beat zo6 times before in my stock cougar.
:cool:

Now a GOOD driver behind the wheel of a GOOD car, now thats the winning combination.


haha yeah I know good driver is what matters. Thats why I listed all them. They all are very good drivers, especially with autox.

[warmonger]

The dual runner intake with secondaries introduces more swirl/turbulence in the cylinder so it allows a serious bump in timing.
You could probably just increase the timing in the low end a bit to improve the power a tad, but the camshaft profiles play a big role in it.
The SVT cams carry the power out a lot further but don't do so well in the bottom end as the escape cams.

[bensenvill]

The dual runner intake with secondaries introduces more swirl/turbulence in the cylinder so it allows a serious bump in timing.

Just like the Vornado!

[NorCalCoug]

GMK HP CAI extension, Mustang TB and 80 MAF, ZEX dry kit.

And one other important piece that's gonna make my kitty fly. But I won't reveal it until the 17th. :evil:

Keep your mouth shut. Even after you get another important thing in the car. ;)

[DemonSVT]

I can't belive anyone even tries to defend your tuning. If you had even done any research on this you would have found a plethora of information about exactly why this happens. Hell I even have a good chunk of it on my website. It's been there for several years even! Your assumptions of why this happens are completely wrong. Also by your statements you did not even think about differences in cams and manifolds. They can definitely be a part on the reason for the different curves. (again old information that's been online for years)

Well at least you datalogged and found out your tuning changes were not doing a bit of good. I can't fault you on that aspect. Many dynos don't bother with any datalogging outside of the A/F on the dyno at that exact time. That's only a small percentage of what needs to be tuned because the PCM is fully adaptive.

I can tell you that with several different combonations I could get any advance I wanted to have. Even past 50 degrees. (yes detonation free!) I'll give you a hint and let you know that too much timing hurts power and I am not talking detonation.
Why is this? It's all because I know how to tune. I can tell you that both of those curves are pathetic. The engine likes significantly more timing then that in all rpm ranges. I've even was the person that originally designed and later posted the ideal curves. Fell free to find them if your are interested. They've been proven over and over. Matter of fact nearly any chip you can order uses a version of them. (i.e. ADC, Superchips)

I understand you are all "gung ho" about tuning but you need to step back and learn how things need to be done. A quick fix tune is always worthless in the long run. Changing the timing curve does not automatically mean you are getting more timing. Your datalogging shows that all too well.

And you still think other people don't know what they are talking about. That's my 2 bits.

[Logan Motorsports]

You are a seriously angry person. I never questioned your tuning ability, and of note is the fact that neither of those cars produced any more power with increased timing. I tried it on both vehicles. Although I'm no Jerry, I am very familiar with the SCT software and am certified. I have over 1000 dyno pulls of expierience, tuning MANY different types of cars. You may think that other vehicles are completely different, but the more expierience you have the better you will become. We have several Duratec customers that are VERY happy, and if you'd like to talk to them about the way their car runs, go ahead, I have no doubts.

As for my tuning changes not doing any good...how can you even begin to conclude that from this thread? All I did was post the timing curves, I didn't post power gains or start/end air-fuel. Ask Ryan Tennant about how much better his car ran after I was finished, or ask Rob Kopala whom we just tuned today. Rob went back and forth with ADC six times!!!! He says the car now runs SIGNIFICANTLY better than it EVER did with the ADC tunes.

As for getting any advance you want, that is a simple point and click affair. I can certainly get any advance I want without detonation as well, but that doesn't mean it will make good power. If you would pay attention you would find that I said the engines DID NOT LIKE MORE TIMING. What is so hard to understand about that? Don't even try to tell me that there is some "special" way to make the engine like more timing, you just add or subtract timing until maximum power is reached without detonation, along with a good fuel curve. Also, how can you tell from those plots where and how I changed the factory timing curves? I can change the IMRC timing adder, I can change the ECT timing retard, the ACT timing retard, borderline knock and the corresponding max allowed spark table. Then of course there is spark at low load, etc. There is absolutely no way you could tell how and what I changed in those tables from one curve.

Listen man, I never said that people on here don't know anything. I posted this thread to start a conversation, you know, to have fun talking about cars? I don't understand why you feel the need to come on here and bash me, I have never said a cross word to you and you have never met me or seen me tune a car. I have 100+ customers that would be willing to talk to you about my tuning, and how I treat them. I'm not saying that to brag, only to point out the fact that it's not like I've only tuned 3 cars. My customers are happy, and I work very hard to try and keep that up. Now if you want to have a good conversation where we argue the fine points constructively, and hopefully we would both learn things from each other, I'm completely cool with that. I love reading and learning more, cars are my passion. I just want people to be happy and have fun, and maybe go fast in the process.

Also, next time you have something to say to me, just call me or write me an email. I'd be glad to talk to you over the phone, and I find that is always easier anyway.

[StealthyWeasel]

give any new person 2 weeks to make posts and people will start to ***** at them. I know nafunu32 and logan motorsports are simply trying to learn about the platform and may overlook some searching/info and each of these people gets flamed in more topics then one.

Its getting dumb.

[BigBalledOX]

There's a big difference between Logan Motorsports and Nafunu32 man. Its an insult to include them in the same sentence.

[StealthyWeasel]

they're both people and getting the same poor treatment. For the principle im saying, is getting dumb.

[Logan Motorsports]

Yea, well sometimes it's hard being the new guy. Overall I love the forum you guys have here, and I think that I've recieved better treatment here than pretty much every other forum I've tried. Certainly you will always have skeptics, but sometimes that is okay because even if they aren't super nice about it, it sort of puts some balance in to the system. Some people like Democrats, some like Republicans (some like neither :rofl:), but the system wouldn't work without both of them. Same idea, and hopefully this will spark some political jokes, I'm always up for a laugh.... :rofl:

[BigBalledOX]

:rofl: We had to agree to not talk politics any more DeWayne, things be gettin ugly if we let it get too far gone. ;)

[bensenvill]

:rofl: We had to agree to not talk politics any more DeWayne, things be gettin ugly if we let it get too far gone. ;)

ya because they are alot like engines and we dont want to start fights.