View Full Version : F/I question
diddy
12-19-2005, 02:33 AM
so we have all these people on the boards that say they are building these turbo/supercharged cars or w/e, but are yet to really see any results. I know a few already have 3L+ w/e mods, but from what it seems, nothing out there is really that impressive. so what's the story? has anybody that is running something other than nitrous actually gotten into the 13's? I mean, george has an automatic, and a 65 shot of nitrous, and he is just as fast, if not faster than some of the guys runnin F/I. what's the deal?
Instigator
12-19-2005, 08:14 AM
so we have all these people on the boards that say they are building these turbo/supercharged cars or w/e, but are yet to really see any results. I know a few already have 3L+ w/e mods, but from what it seems, nothing out there is really that impressive. so what's the story? has anybody that is running something other than nitrous actually gotten into the 13's? I mean, george has an automatic, and a 65 shot of nitrous, and he is just as fast, if not faster than some of the guys runnin F/I. what's the deal?
i am about a 100-150 amp fuse away from starting my car. i relocted my battery and when i fix this problem i will be breakin in my new motor and turbo and as soo as i clock 1000 miles im going to the dyno and the track here opens on jan 10 ill be there on the first day.
ive cranked her twice so far to build oil pressure, and on my third try i keep blowing the in line fuse from my battery. i need one able to hold the amperage.
dont worry guy i hope to be impressing people soon
a lot of people like to talk about what they are going to do eventually, some even put it in their sig's like they lready have the stuff. then they end up sellin their car or something :crazy:
Buckshot77
12-19-2005, 10:38 AM
The main issue is getting the power to the ground. In drag racing the vast majority of your time comes from the launch and the first 60-200' of the run. There's a limited amount of power you can put down in these cars on the launch so you probably can hit that limit with something as simple as a 65 shot on an otherwise stock car. After that you gain a few tenths or so in the top end charge, but you lost all of your time getting out of the hole. Driver obviously is going to play the biggest part of getting the power down as well. This car just isn't designed to be a 1/4 mile monster, it's a highway runner and then some. The guys with high HP #'s aren't going to significantly reset the lowest ET we've seen to date. I think the best any of us could really hope for would be very low 13's. With the right driver, maybe even 12.9x, but that's stretching it IMO.
Rick
pgtatx
12-19-2005, 01:01 PM
The honest best way to run fast drag times on a car like ours...without going to a RWD conversion or other extreme driveline upgrades would be...
-Extreme weight reduction
-Very linear power (NA builds would be best here...keep traction from launch to the end)
-Great Driver
-Solid (good grip, not enough to break sh!t) tires
-A Good suspension, and of course a LSD will help with launching and traction...
Too much power is worse than too little...cause without traction...all the power in the world won't help.
Just my opinion of course...
diddy
12-19-2005, 05:07 PM
I know about building higher hp cars and traction and all that junk. that's not what I was askin about :rofl: but if you look across the boards, the best why to have a reliable, fast car would be to buy an auto v6 and put nitrous on it and tune it :rofl: seems to put the 3L cougars to shame
Come closer and say that. :disgust:
Rikenbomb
12-19-2005, 06:02 PM
Come closer and say that. :disgust:
Exactly.
Don't knock it 'till you try it.
Also George has put a lot of money to run nitrous (and tune it properly) to get those numbers. Understand that. He's running the juice the right way.
ilovemycar
12-19-2005, 06:12 PM
Tim i am not even gonna get into it with you on this one. All i have to say is race a 3L coug in your Tibby and see what the outcome will be!
Coug'= 98
Tibby= 2
BigBalledOX
12-19-2005, 06:19 PM
My car is perfectly reliable. I'm not going to speculate what I'll be running by Fest, but once the car is bottled, tuned, and I've had sufficient practice launching her, I think my car will be plenty quick down the quarter.
diddy
12-19-2005, 07:18 PM
Tim i am not even gonna get into it with you on this one. All i have to say is race a 3L coug in your Tibby and see what the outcome will be!
Coug'= 98
Tibby= 2
or after I get some mods I will race a 3l coug. that statement was pointless. lol. that's like saying "i'd like to see a stock cougar beat a highly modified civic" :rofl:
diddy
12-19-2005, 07:20 PM
Exactly.
Don't knock it 'till you try it.
Also George has put a lot of money to run nitrous (and tune it properly) to get those numbers. Understand that. He's running the juice the right way.
I'm not exactly knocking it, just questioning it. everybody seems to be :bowdown: to the 3l, when it doesn't seem that there has been really impressive results. that's all I'm sayin. where are the results from all the time, sweat, and money put into the allmighty 3L?
ilovemycar
12-19-2005, 07:33 PM
I'm not exactly knocking it, just questioning it. everybody seems to be :bowdown: to the 3l, when it doesn't seem that there has been really impressive results. that's all I'm sayin. where are the results from all the time, sweat, and money put into the allmighty 3L?
On the dyno...it doesn't lie!
On the track a bad driver can make a car look slow. But on the dyno you can't argue with the numbers.
Simply put...a 3L does, and will always make more power than a 2.5...all mods being the same.
"the allmighty 3L"...:goofy:...have you ever ridin' in a 3L coug? Prolly not. Like said before...don't knock it 'til you try it.
All this coming from a guy that has not even done a 3L swap yet LMAO!(talking about myself ofcourse)
diddy
12-19-2005, 07:43 PM
so whats the point of having a higher hp car if it doesnt perform as well as a car with less hp? you building a dyno queen? i've ridden in a few modded svt tours. those are impressive, still yet to see any cougars that seem to be just as impressive performance wise....
pgtatx
12-19-2005, 10:06 PM
I guess I don't understand what are you asking...
So, what are you asking??
Yeah, slap N2O on a any car and put a well built car to shame on the road...It happens.
What's your point??
My friend has a Supercharged Viper...makes around 900 lb/ft torque...never has an traction, and with the minimal weight in the rear, getting the car to move is just scary. But it's still a damn cool car.
And you are correct with 1 thing...some people bench race for a living, and are pure and utter dyno queens. That being said...To each his own...
I only have a little puny 2.5L 4cyl...is that good or bad?? Just wondering...
ilovemycar
12-19-2005, 10:42 PM
I only have a little puny 2.5L 4cyl...is that good or bad?? Just wondering...
I'll answer that one...a VERY good thing. My best friend has an STi...that thing is just as fun the first time you ride.drive in it as it was the very first! :thumbsup:
Very good trade for the coug...just wish i couldv'e got your tranny! :cool:
ilovemycar
12-19-2005, 10:43 PM
I guess I don't understand what are you asking...
So, what are you asking??
What's your point??
I am not sure what the point in this post was either? Just to rag on a car that he just got rid off :rolleyes: :goofy:
diddy
12-20-2005, 01:21 AM
no, not really ragging on cougars. there are plenty of tours that run with the same engines that are beasts of a car. i was just talkin with someone the other day about F/I, cougars came up, and it got me thinkin about it. I couldn't really think of any F/I cars on here other than icetron and jorge, and knew they pretty much had the faster of the cars on here, and I hear a lot about turbo builds and all this, but never really hear any results. I loved my cougar, it was a fun car to drive. yes, now that I have the tib I realize it is a lot more fun to drive seein as it has more power, and more potential than the cougar with just lookin at aftermarket parts, and with how restricted this car is stock, an intake has been dynoed on an auto tib and gained 20whp. so this car has a lot of potential, and I like that, but that wasnt the point of this thread. you have so many contours runnin F/I and runnin badass times, why no cougars?
ilovemycar
12-20-2005, 10:38 AM
an intake has been dynoed on an auto tib and gained 20whp.
i would have to see that to belive it! LMAO!
diddy
12-20-2005, 11:11 AM
i would have to see that to belive it! LMAO!
stock auto GT Tibs dyno at about 130whp, this dyno was after an injen sri was installed, I called bs over on the tib forums, but then they jumped all in my sh!t lettin me know it was for real, and has been dynoed the same many times
http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/10/web/766000-766999/766127_16_full.jpg
I dyno on Thursday. Results will be posted. Not expecting great results due to chip problems, will only be running 12.5psi of boost max. According to ADC, you don't want to go above 12 without race gas. I plan to test that theory, given my forged internals. Of course, pinging will be monitored (audible since there aren't any real knock sensors), and will get off the throttle if any is heard, dial down the boost, and try again.
ilovemycar
12-20-2005, 03:01 PM
Not go above 12 with race gas? LMAO :rolleyes:
IT HAS FORGED INTERNALS, and even if it didn't it should still be fine with a decent tune.
I mean i know a Supra is not a Cougar, and a Honda is not a Cougar, but they run 15-20psi all day long on pump gas so i do not see a problem. So long as there IS fuel to compensate.
What size are your injectors Dan?
diddy
12-20-2005, 03:45 PM
yeah, 12lbs sounds a bit low.
42lb/hr. SVT Lightning injectors.
And if the only thing you're considering is the psi load of the turbo, you're sorely mistaken. I have the T3/4 60 trim, not the T28...
ilovemycar
12-20-2005, 04:54 PM
42lb/hr. SVT Lightning injectors.
And if the only thing you're considering is the psi load of the turbo, you're sorely mistaken. I have the T3/4 60 trim, not the T28...
No i am not talking about the psi alone. I mean i watched with my own eyes a Supra put down over 600whp on 93 gas. And i have helped build/drive/ride in a civic boosting 15+ everyday...on street gas. The Supra had a T88 on 19psi, and the civic has a T3/T4 63 trim with a .82a/r
So why exactly does ADC not recommend going over 12psi? Is it maybe the "winter gas", or do you not have 93 where you live? 12psi is not over 400whp...and those injectors are definitely good for that. So what gives?
Oh yah...and just to compare say your size injectors to what the civic has in it...the civic has 440cc's which are fairly close to the 42lb.'ers you have. And we all know it takes more gas for a 4 cylinder to make 400hp than it does for a V6...based of off all the calculators that are all over the net.
BTW i am not trying to make you mad or anything...just questioning the 12psi thing :tongue:
Goin' by what they told me. I have 93 gas here. I'll toy with the idea of cranking it to "11", per se... See what I can get out of it. Provided I get the chip in time, otherwise it'll be hell with no secondaries.
The whole cfm vs. psi thing I ran into the other day. Absolutely walked a Jetta running a 1.8T at 24psi on the stock turbo. I was at 6psi. :crazy: Granted the difference in displacement, but come on! 24???!!
ilovemycar
12-20-2005, 05:58 PM
Goin' by what they told me. I have 93 gas here. I'll toy with the idea of cranking it to "11", per se... See what I can get out of it. Provided I get the chip in time, otherwise it'll be hell with no secondaries.
The whole cfm vs. psi thing I ran into the other day. Absolutely walked a Jetta running a 1.8T at 24psi on the stock turbo. I was at 6psi. :crazy: Granted the difference in displacement, but come on! 24???!!
Yah but if i am not mistaken(which i could very well be) they only come with a T28 or something like that. @ 24psi it is way out of its efficiency range! lol
If i were you i would get in on the PRP deal they have going on CEG right now...and then get it tuned by a shop around you. Cause with 42lb injectors you should be able to go over 12psi even with pump gas.
I know you don't wanna hear what i just said cause you have already spent so much money, but you and i both know that is what needs to happen ;)
(another things that your car "needs" to make some big power is a T3/T4 62-1 :bowdown:)
Nemesis
12-20-2005, 08:29 PM
George has no part in this conversation and he respects hard work put into cars, including 3Ls, 3L's with FI, 2.5L MTXers, and whatever else. And for the record he ran a 16.1 once only in second gear down the track. :rofl:
yay for n0s
diddy
12-20-2005, 08:33 PM
that's not what you were sayin at the varsity :rofl:
j/k
StealthyWeasel
12-20-2005, 10:13 PM
I think rikenbomb is the only 3L in maryland, im not sure.. but I need to ride in that:cool:
CheapROUSHparts
12-22-2005, 05:13 PM
1.8T VW's have K.K.K (yes they are a turbo manufacturer) K03 Sport.
Stock they put out 11.5 psi of boost with a chip a maximum of 22psi can be obtained before the computer puts it in "limp mode"
24psi is a bogus claim. I don't doubt your cougar spanked it though.
Dyno plots coming tonight- Numbers already up in the 3L forum :banana:
ilovemycar
12-22-2005, 07:01 PM
1.8T VW's have K.K.K (yes they are a turbo manufacturer) K03 Sport.
Stock they put out 11.5 psi of boost with a chip a maximum of 22psi can be obtained before the computer puts it in "limp mode"
24psi is a bogus claim. I don't doubt your cougar spanked it though.
it's not a bogus claim...i have personally seen one run 25psi at the track. It still wasn't very fast, but i know he was running 25psi.
diddy
12-22-2005, 08:03 PM
yeah, i've seen kids get little vw turbos, buy a boost controller, then just shoot the boost up bc they think itll make it a lot faster, then they figure out that its way out of the efficiency range of the turbo. lol
beyondloadedSE
12-23-2005, 12:01 PM
Not go above 12 with race gas? LMAO :rolleyes:
I mean i know a Supra is not a Cougar, and a Honda is not a Cougar, but they run 15-20psi all day long on pump gas so i do not see a problem. So long as there IS fuel to compensate.
PSI means nothing. 15 psi on a civic compared to 15 psi on a supra compared to 15 psi on a contour are completely different. Its all about CFM airflow and what size turbo. the supra can make 600 whp probably because its running a massive turbo and even though its running high amounts of boost, there isnt a lot of heat thats produced on 15 psi on a T-88. On a 2.5L with a T-28, 12 psi is about all that turbo will push before making so much heat that there is no more power to made. It would be even lower boost for a 3.0L due to the increase in displacement and higher cfm airflow. Thats why running a T-28 on a 3.0L isnt recommended.
And the whole comment about there being fuel there to compensate is incorrect as well. With higher boost comes higher temps which can cause detonation with 93 octane. Thats why ADC says to run higher octane fuel for higher boost.
ilovemycar
12-23-2005, 12:28 PM
PSI means nothing. 15 psi on a civic compared to 15 psi on a supra compared to 15 psi on a contour are completely different. Its all about CFM airflow and what size turbo. the supra can make 600 whp probably because its running a massive turbo and even though its running high amounts of boost, there isnt a lot of heat thats produced on 15 psi on a T-88. On a 2.5L with a T-28, 12 psi is about all that turbo will push before making so much heat that there is no more power to made. It would be even lower boost for a 3.0L due to the increase in displacement and higher cfm airflow. Thats why running a T-28 on a 3.0L isnt recommended.
And the whole comment about there being fuel there to compensate is incorrect as well. With higher boost comes higher temps which can cause detonation with 93 octane. Thats why ADC says to run higher octane fuel for higher boost.
All of this right here...i know this :thumbsup:
If all he can boost is 12psi on pump gas because the turbo is so small it starts to push hot air at that...then he needs a bigger turbo!
Bigger than a T3/4 60-1 trim???!! Maybe a .82A/R housing would help... :evil:
ilovemycar
12-23-2005, 02:09 PM
Bigger than a T3/4 60-1 trim???!! Maybe a .82A/R housing would help... :evil:
HELL YAH! lol
The Honda that me and a friend mess with has a 2L with a T3/T4 63 trim with a .82A/R housing. It spools by about 3800. You think another full liter couldn't spool it at least 5-800rpm quicker?
And with the 63 trim and that housing you would definitely be able to reach 500whp...not that you would be able to put it anywhere but up in smoke but hey it would be fun! lol
DemonSVT
12-23-2005, 03:52 PM
The Honda that me and a friend mess with has a 2L with a T3/T4 63 trim with a .82A/R housing. It spools by about 3800.
I don't buy that for a second.
A 2L engine spooling a 63 trim (have a map for that?) with a large .82 housing by 3800rpm.
Spooling to what. Positive boost from vacuum maybe.
Let's plot that out on the map. I'd bet it's in surge until well past 4000rpm.
I do have the 60-1 map handy. (just used it to do his calcs in the other forum)
{edit}
Okay I can now guarentee it is in surge until maybe 6000 rpm. I used both a 60 & 62 trim map and the engine would put the turbo over the surge limit until over 6000rpm & 12psi on a 62-1 trim and at nearly every point inthe curve of a 60-1 trim.
At 4000rpm it still would be generating ZERO boost because the exhaust could not supply enough energy.
I can post pictures of the computer plotted graphs if you like.
Instigator
12-23-2005, 04:44 PM
Bigger than a T3/4 60-1 trim???!! Maybe a .82A/R housing would help... :evil:
shoulda got a gt35-r :biggrin:
ilovemycar
12-23-2005, 05:42 PM
I don't buy that for a second.
A 2L engine spooling a 63 trim (have a map for that?) with a large .82 housing by 3800rpm.
Spooling to what. Positive boost from vacuum maybe.
Let's plot that out on the map. I'd bet it's in surge until well past 4000rpm.
I do have the 60-1 map handy. (just used it to do his calcs in the other forum)
{edit}
Okay I can now guarentee it is in surge until maybe 6000 rpm. I used both a 60 & 62 trim map and the engine would put the turbo over the surge limit until over 6000rpm & 12psi on a 62-1 trim and at nearly every point inthe curve of a 60-1 trim.
At 4000rpm it still would be generating ZERO boost because the exhaust could not supply enough energy.
I can post pictures of the computer plotted graphs if you like.
All i have to say is...ride in the car...look at the boost gauge...and see it hit 10-11psi by 3800-4000rpm's!
EDIT...actually copuld you post the maps you have? I would like to see them...maybe learn a few things.
RodneyBur
12-28-2005, 01:00 AM
can you post some vids of that civic spooling up? I'd like to see that in action.
:)
ilovemycar
12-28-2005, 10:37 AM
can you post some vids of that civic spooling up? I'd like to see that in action.
:)
I am glad you asked. Right now me and a friend are building up another motor for it...videoing it along the way, and we will definitely have some vids once it is up and running also!
B18B1 block sleeved to a 2L with a T3/T4 63 trim A/R .82 :biggrin:
ilovemycar
12-28-2005, 10:43 AM
I am glad you asked. Right now me and a friend are building up another motor for it...videoing it along the way, and we will definitely have some vids once it is up and running also!
B18B1 block sleeved to a 2L with a T3/T4 63 trim A/R .82 :biggrin:
Greg...you think you could do a map for me and tell me what the turbo should be good to? We have been told it will get us over 500whp:eek: ...could it?