need advice on my "connecting rod" dilemma

[Instigator]

Situation: Connecting Rods are the very last piece i need to build my 3L

2 - 3 months ago, I had a stock post 2000 con rod sent off to GRP to be copied into a forged piece and a set be made for me. Well, it turns out they want to tell me (8 weeks later) that they only do aluminum and titanium rods. After being very frustrated with them, I called several other rods companies to see if I can have a custom set made in steel. After lots of upsetting phone calls, I find out Pauter is the cheapest, but they take 10 weeks. That will not suffice, because I wont be able to make it to cougarfest. So after calling Draxas at least 1000 times, he finally answers the phone and I ask him if he has some Pauter rods for me by any chance. He says he has a set being made for a customer, and that Pauter was making some extras for their shelf. I told nick to call pauter and put my name on one of the extra sets and call me back when he did that. Still no phone call back, and ive called hime at least 20 times and left 20 messgages, still no phone call. He also said those sets have 3 weeks left until completion. That was 2 weeks ago. I called Pauter soon after, and no one i talked to took Nick's order. I talked to at least 4 different Pauter people, but they couldnt help. 3 of them said they'd call me back. Still no phone call.

After Memorial day, I will try these guys one last time. But I am getting very tired of this. And i know i can get new post 2000 PM rods from ford here in 3-4 days and for less than $500 and have my motor built by next Saturday.

Ive done some searching here (havent gone to CEG yet, i will after i post this) and ive read that (to date) post 2000 rods have handled upwards of 330-350 whp/tq and havent broken yet. Witht the forged Rods, i planned on 16-20 psi on 8.5:1 compression with expected low 400-450 whp/tq on 93 oct (those #'s are theorectical). and when i built the tranny up, run some 114-116 oct and 25+ psi.

It would make my day if the best ford rods could handle 400-450 on a regular basis, because after that amount power the transmission wont last, and i didnt plan on running any race gas and more boost until i built the transmission up more. i already have a 2002 tranny with Quaife, updated forks/syncros.

Long story short.......should i risk large amount of money invested on this motor with only a guess at those stock rods' capabilities, or go with forged?

thanks for the advice (and off to ceg)

[ov3n]

did you try pm'ing pgtatx or draxas on here?

[Instigator]

nope, but what could pgtatx do for me?

[FastCougar]

Originally posted by: Instigator
nope, but what could pgtatx do for me?He is one of the partners in Draxas ;)

BTW, after extensive conversations with Pauter directly, I can tell you that they had a set of 10 rods go into production around April 1st. They told me about the 10 week production schedule and that if I wanted to place my order and be included in that run, that I should do so quickly. So, I called my supplier and promptly ordered 2 sets (DanG and I are buying things together for our builds to save a little money. We placed the order 3/31 ... about 8 weeks ago ... only 2 weeks to go. If they do have more in that batch that are not spoken for, they should be available in about 2-3 weeks if not sooner.

[DemonSVT]

Nobody knows the actual limit of the stock rods.

It's at least 350/350 wheels though.


As for aftermarket rods. Only Cunningham & Pauter have the rod build specs "on hand" IIRC.

[Instigator]

even if i do end up with the puater/cunninghams, im going to start to exceed the tranny's durability around 400-450 right? im scared to go higher than that without stronger gears, etc. Im torn on whether to hold out with the cheap, stock rods at or above 350-400, and keep my tranny intact, or go ahead with pauter anyway and sit around 400-450 whp and worry about the transmission.

say i get the post 2000 (id buy 2005 escape rods anyway) and kept myself well oiled and welloil-cooled.......ive got clevite 77 rod bearings, the latest and greatest oil pan and tray, how would the rod fail? I wont be flooring it under any hard right turns by any means.......will the rod just snap? or what?

thanks

[Massiv]

Like a chicken bone.... :biggrin:

I say build in what you can now (i.e. rods), and worry about the tranny later. At least it's a lot easier to pull and replace the tranny, than to rebuild an engine...

Massiv.

[DemonSVT]

Sounds like 20-30k on mods for a FWD car to me.

Custom gears (5-6k)
Tranny bits (2-3k)
Custom hubs & axles (1500+)
Turbo set ($6k)
et cetera, et cetera.


I still don't see it getting any serious traction once you get the parts to stop breaking.

IMO you are just going to end up making a dyno queen and I have nothing good to say about those.


I'd say put 10k into your Cougar and the other 20k into a car you want to drag/road race or whatever. With 20k you could easily build a 10 second car verses maybe a high 12 second FWD car. Not to mention for that 10k your Cougar would be well into the 13's. The other 20k is not going to not much ET just crazy trap speed. Lots of proof of that already.


Just my two bits...

[Instigator]

Originally posted by: DemonSVT
Sounds like 20-30k on mods for a FWD car to me.

Custom gears (5-6k)
Tranny bits (2-3k)
Custom hubs & axles (1500+)
Turbo set ($6k)
et cetera, et cetera.


I still don't see it getting any serious traction once you get the parts to stop breaking.

IMO you are just going to end up making a dyno queen and I have nothing good to say about those.


I'd say put 10k into your Cougar and the other 20k into a car you want to drag/road race or whatever. With 20k you could easily build a 10 second car verses maybe a high 12 second FWD car. Not to mention for that 10k your Cougar would be well into the 13's. The other 20k is not going to not much ET just crazy trap speed. Lots of proof of that already.


Just my two bits...

i totally respect your opinion demon, and you can call me an idiot for already having those custom hubs and axles (DSS stage 5......$1699 to be exact :tongue: )

i just wanted to make a lot of power, i already knew traction would be a huge issue, but i never intended on have a 1/4 mile cougar.......i like pulling the hell out of people on the highway :)

im starting to lean towards keeping stock rods, this way i dont have to sell my new wheels, and i dont have to deal with draxas or pauter anymore......plus ill save $600

[Kinger]

Self imposed deadlines are stupid, I would take your time and do her right. 400+ whp will find the limits of the stock rods in a HURRY!

My 280 FWHP SC3L would break the tires at 5K when the boost came on! Your 400 WHP monster will probably throw ya off the road when 17 psi hits! It will definity take master driver to hold on to, mine the wheel would just yank out of my hand like someone in the pass seat grabbed it!

I gurantee you'll throw a stock rod and be the first person to find the limit of them. How big is your wallet and how important is cougarfest this year? Those are the only questions you need to awnser.

[timeless420]

Yep...I'm prob out $600 CAD for misc bolts & gaskets and rebalancing my assembly since I rushed and forgot to check my piston skirt clearance. Now I have the 2.5 back in the car and I blew a bunch of $$ on a rental for 18days for no reason now.

[Instigator]

i have looked at some options, and there is this place in town where i can get things magnafluxed and shot peened. What kind of effect will these have on the stock PM rods?

i decided not to try to be power king yet, just keep the power at a mindful 350-375 whp..........i really want to attend fest after missing it last year because my 99 tranny decided to blow up

[FastCougar]

Call these guys ... Ask them if you bought now, if you would be in on the set of 10 rods that Pauter was producing. I got a nice price break for buying 2 sets at once, but their "single" price is around $1,025 ... cheapest I have seen by far. For what it's worth, I would highly recommend going with the forged rods ... why be the guinea pig and watch a $5K+ engine build go up in smoke because you didn't spend an extra $500?

http://www.cvproducts.com

Part Number: PAU-FRD-210-530-1380

[Instigator]

how would the rod fail? crack? be thrown? anyone know?

[FastCougar]

Originally posted by: Instigator
how would the rod fail? crack? be thrown? anyone know?

Read This: http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/82378/

Then This: http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/82378/index1.html

Happy Reading ;)

[Kinger]

Sinter forged rods would crack and shatter then the remains would push through the block...i'm guessing.

[warmonger]

The stock rods are going to outlast your traction unless you get drag slicks.

I'm confident the rods can approach 400 HP though not sure about 400 torque, maybe in the low rpms they can take 400 torque.

There appears to be no difference in the metallurgy for any of the rods at least from 1999 on to the present day. Don't waste your money on newer rods if you've got access to a set already. Besides, if the rods have been in an engine a while then they have proved they are not defective. If you get a defective rod it could/would fail quickly. Kind of like a burn-in period on a motherboard ya know?

I would get your motor together now and then you can always take it apart in a year or so after you tweak out all the bugs of having your 3L turbo running. You can go from there and build it to a new level. There are so many new parts and new variables, why add more of those variables and more cost to the mix when you won't be able to set that power to the ground anyway?

Some of your Cougar buddies met up with me in atlanta this weekend and even with four in the car in the afternoon of a 90 degree day they were spinning my 235" falkens on the road in 1st and 2nd gear....no clutch popping either!
Ask around, A nice guy named George took some video of it.

Oh and as far as failure, these rods will probably crack, probably will have some bending/yielding but not as much as a forged rod would. Doesn't really matter how they break once they're broken does it?

[DemonSVT]

Hey Tom.

Your signature is a bit dyslexic.

Only 238 lb/ft of TQ eh. What a cream puff turbo... ;)

[Instigator]

ive decided to keep the boost down, and keep power around 350-400 max.

ill be out of college real soon, so ill have a lot of extra cash in about a year and ill make myself a dyno queen:cover:

i just want some real nice power, even if most of it isnt even usable, and to make it to cougarfest

[warmonger]

There! your first step towards rehab is admitting you have a problem! <laughing>

It's perfectly ok to want a dyno queen and now that you know that you can go about accompishing that. Besides, you can always dial down the boost when you want to get down to business at the track.

:biggrin:

[warmonger]

Originally posted by: DemonSVT
Hey Tom.

Your signature is a bit dyslexic.

Only 238 lb/ft of TQ eh. What a cream puff turbo... ;)

Ok wise-ass, I was wondering what the heck you were talking about and when I realized it I busted a gut laughing. :biggrin:

It's fixed now.

Guess what I am about to embark on now..... I has to do with pulling the powertrain and a set of headers...

[DemonSVT]

Originally posted by: warmonger
It's fixed now.

Guess what I am about to embark on now..... I has to do with pulling the powertrain and a set of headers...
Cool.

Maybe that will make you as quick as a lowly NA 3L is.

It's also a good chance to test the stock rods & pistons right...


{have to stay in wise-ass mode :tongue: }

[FastCougar]

13.82 @ 108.6 mph

vs.

13.47 @ 102 mph

Something tells me that if Tom could get good traction off the line, he would be well into the 12's considering his trap speed with what I would assume is massive amounts of wheel spin.

Tom, was that run on street tires or drag slicks? IIRC, Greg's run was on slicks no?

Using the horsepower calculator at boostcontroller.com (http://www.boostcontroller.com/display_page.php?i=16), I get the following information assuming that Tom's car weighs in at 3200lbs with him in the car:

Trap Speed Method: approx. 320 HP ( pretty damn accurate! )
ET Method: approx. 240 HP ( shows that you wasted roughly 80hp to traction issues )

Applying the same calculations to Greg's numbers, assuming the same weight:

Trap Speed Method: approx. 265 HP ( get the damn thing to a dyno already Greg :tongue: )
ET Method: approx. 259 HP ( see above comment :poke: )

[warmonger]

Those calculators sound pretty fair in their assessment!

Yeah, those were stock width street tires. They were my Falken Ziex 512 tires running 215/45-17.

I've bumped up the tire size to 235/45-17 now and they give some better grip. I haven't been spinning in 3rd gear with them anymore.
I also have two extra rims to order drag slicks but they're still 17" so I'm not sure how that is going to work out.

Oh, I know how "quick" YOUR very Lowly NA car can be. I just happened to have been gone at the time and haven't been back to a strip in a year.

PM me at home and we'll discuss some pertinent details, besides, I have a few questions that can use an opinion.....and even though you're short on HP you're never short on opinions! :tongue: