Starting engine

[slurpee]

I've got all 3.0 parts except the valve covers, and upper and lower intakes. All accessories are from the 2.5, the wiring harness and wires are from the 2.5 also. I'm trying to start the engine, but it just cranks and cranks. We can smell fuel out the exhaust. I don't have the chip from arizona yet...will that make a difference? And, is there a certain way to fire up the engine for the first time?

[CougarGT]

Remember the fire triangle.

Fuel-Air-Heat

Verify you are getting each.
Verify fuel pressure at the fuel rail. Verify injectors are firing (noid light). Verify you have spark.

I bet you will determine the problem with one of the above.

[DemonSVT]

What orientation did you put the crank pulse wheel on?

Did you remember to ground the coil pack? The coil pack resistor wire?

Did you ground the engine at the main mount?

Did you foolishly disconnect the 3 pack of connectors mounted on the front of the right (rear) head?

Did you ground the PCM harness?

[Massiv]

What size are your injectors?

Massiv.

[sonza68]

He's using the 24lb injectors off the 3L.

[PuckPuck]

Go back to 19# injectors..... (but that shouldn't stop it from starting)


Do you get any kind of combustion? I'm betting you have a coil pack/spark issue.

[slurpee]

We'll have to check for spark. The crank pulse wheel is set to 3.0. The coil pack is grounded, also the motor is grounded to. The three pack of connectors that you were talking about are all connected. I'm definitly going to be checking out everything posted...this sucks. It sounds like it wants to go, but it just won't turn over. Looks like a long week. Thank you far all the comments. There could always be something we didn't check and someone else would think of it.

[sonza68]

As Steve said, there was some combustion, but not enough to get it to turn over. Yay, more trouble shooting.

[RodneyBur]

Originally posted by: slurpee
I've got all 3.0 parts except the valve covers, and upper and lower intakes. All accessories are from the 2.5, the wiring harness and wires are from the 2.5 also. I'm trying to start the engine, but it just cranks and cranks. We can smell fuel out the exhaust. I don't have the chip from arizona yet...will that make a difference? And, is there a certain way to fire up the engine for the first time?

Do you have to use the 2.5l valve covers??

[Kinger]

Originally posted by: slurpee
We'll have to check for spark. The crank pulse wheel is set to 3.0.

DOH! Pull her out, it needs to be set to 2.5! Unless I'm wrong about full 3L I beleive the pulse wheel and ECM are st up for the 2.5 so with it in the 3L setting it wont fire.

[PuckPuck]

Originally posted by: Kinger

Originally posted by: slurpee
We'll have to check for spark. The crank pulse wheel is set to 3.0.

DOH! Pull her out, it needs to be set to 2.5! Unless I'm wrong about full 3L I beleive the pulse wheel and ECM are st up for the 2.5 so with it in the 3L setting it wont fire.

DING DING DING!!!! we have a winner....

the pulse wheel is set to the timing cover used. 3L timing covers don't fit in our cars. You gotta set it to the 2.5L position. This has to do with the location of the Crank Position Sensor within the timing cover itself. Location of sensor is different for each cover.

BTW: you can do this with the engine still in the car.... it's tough and messy, but with the assistance of an engine puller you should be able to do it.....

[slurpee]

We actually used the 3.0 timing cover from the escape. It fit perfect into the car...well, of course there's always the sliding it in part, but the escape timing cover fits just fine. That's were we thought timing would be set to 3.0 instead of the 2.5.

[sonza68]

Originally posted by: RodneyBur

Originally posted by: slurpee
I've got all 3.0 parts except the valve covers, and upper and lower intakes. All accessories are from the 2.5, the wiring harness and wires are from the 2.5 also. I'm trying to start the engine, but it just cranks and cranks. We can smell fuel out the exhaust. I don't have the chip from arizona yet...will that make a difference? And, is there a certain way to fire up the engine for the first time?

Do you have to use the 2.5l valve covers??

We did since the 3L valve covers don't have mounting points for the coil pack and IMRC.

[ov3n]

Originally posted by: slurpee
We actually used the 3.0 timing cover from the escape. It fit perfect into the car...well, of course there's always the sliding it in part, but the escape timing cover fits just fine. That's were we thought timing would be set to 3.0 instead of the 2.5.

The escape timing cover has the crank position sensor in the same place as the 99-00 2.5. The 2001-2002 2.5 timing cover and the escape timing cover are exactly the same.

[sonza68]

Just for clarification then, is the following statement correct?

The pulse wheel should be set in the 2.5L position on a '02 Escape motor (3L block, heads, cams, timing equipment and timing cover) with the '00 Cougar ignition system and ECU.

[PuckPuck]

pulse wheel needs to be set to whatever timing cover you use.... compare both timing covers, and notice the location of the crank position sensor....

if you used a 3L timing cover, the 3L pulse wheel setting should work.....

CPK Stuff:
The CPK detects the missing tooth on the pulse wheel, to know what position the crank is in using magnetics. If the missing tooth is at say 45* on the 3L setting, then the CPK should be at 45*. If the missing tooth is at say 60* on the 2.5L setting then the CPK should be at 60*. The location of the CPK of course is determined by the timing cover.

Now that's one thing. Our cars however also use a Cam Position Sensor. i'm not exactly sure what it uses to check for position, but I can only assume it's the exhaust cam gear on the left head or an actual timing chain link on the left head (front head). I would assume some spark calculations are also based on this sensor, but I'm not 100% sure. Ford wouldn't put the sensor there if it did nothing.

I would double check 100% that both timing covers are EXACTLY the same. Most importantly the location of the Cam and Crank position sensors.

If you are getting some combustion but no start, then you are getting air/fuel/spark, but the spark timing is out.

Of course, the most obvious would be to check and ensure the plug wires are on the right plugs.

[DemonSVT]

Originally posted by: PuckPuck
pulse wheel needs to be set to whatever timing cover you use.... compare both timing covers, and notice the location of the crank position sensor....

if you used a 3L timing cover, the 3L pulse wheel setting should work.....
That is DEAD WRONG!

The Escape uses the new style 2.5L cover.

The 3L mark on the pulse wheel is for the Taurus 3L cover. (Maybe a 6 or JAG too???, but it was added specifically for the Taurus cover)

It has been posted 100's of times YOU HAVE TO USE the 2.5L slot on the pulse wheel.

It is even in every single 3L How-To and sticky post.

Also this simple step seems to be the number 1 cause of build errors. Unfathomable considering how many times it has been brought up and how many times it has happened. You did notice it was the FIRST thing I asked eh... :shrug:

[PuckPuck]

Originally posted by: DemonSVT

Originally posted by: PuckPuck
pulse wheel needs to be set to whatever timing cover you use.... compare both timing covers, and notice the location of the crank position sensor....

if you used a 3L timing cover, the 3L pulse wheel setting should work.....
That is DEAD WRONG!

The Escape uses the new style 2.5L cover.

The 3L mark on the pulse wheel is for the Taurus 3L cover. (Maybe a 6 or JAG too???, but it was added specifically for the Taurus cover)

It has been posted 100's of times YOU HAVE TO USE the 2.5L slot on the pulse wheel.

It is even in every single 3L How-To and sticky post.



Also this simple step seems to be the number 1 cause of build errors. Unfathomable considering how many times it has been brought up and how many times it has happened. You did notice it was the FIRST thing I asked eh... :shrug:

please explain to me how my statement is DEAD WRONG... if your next line says the Escape uses the new 2.5L style cover. So my statement is technically correct in that the cover, although from a 3L engine, is actually a 2.5L cover..... hmmmmm.... maybe your arrogance should take a back seat to intelligence next time.....


main i can't beleive just how rude you are sometimes.

[DemonSVT]

Follow the logic here.

The Escape uses a 3L Duratec engine.

Therefore according to you the pulse wheel should be set on the 3L mark because he used the cover from the 3L Escape engine.

The original "2.5L" cover was discontinued during the 2001 model year. (maybe even before it)

Therefore you could technically say the 2001 2.5L Duratec in the Cougar uses the "Escape 3L front cover" since the cover was made for the Escape but also works on the CDW-27 platform. Therefore Ford deleted the old CDW-27 2.5L cover and hence why I referred to it as the "new 2.5L cover" because 2001+ Cougar owners can relate to that. However it is technically an Escape 3L front cover as the original design was.

However...

MY MAIN POINT which you so blantantly missed was the fact that no matter WHAT COVER YOU USE IN THE CDW-27 PLATFORM you ALWAYS put the pulse wheel on the 2.5L mark. Yes I am shouting because you did not seem to catch it the first time and this point never seems to get through to many people. (Hence the countless times this exact same build error happens)

As for me not having "pity" on someone making this mistake, (your arrogance retort) well read the rest of my previous post. Why have pity on someone that did not bother to do their homework. Especially homework that has been rammed down the throat of anyone that's been on either board in the last 4 years. I do think it sucks to have to tear the engine apart for a simple error and everyone has been in situations like this at one point or another.
This could have been easily avoided by simple homework. When I screw up I don't go blaming other people or making up excuses Puck. :shrug: I normally just swear really loud at my mistake and try to figure out a solution. Nothing to be embarrassed about because sh~t happens.

[Massiv]

Anyway slurpee... the bad news is, you have to have it set on the 2.5L setting. Sorry bud. FYI, my hybrid uses the 04 Escape donor engine's timing cover (it was cleaner :biggrin: ), and I have the pulse wheel set to the 2.5 side.

Massiv.

[slurpee]

It's all good. We started pulling the timing cover off while it's in the car. It's a pain, but it'll be worth it in the end. Thanks for all the help. Sorry to cause such a disturbance.

[RodneyBur]

Originally posted by: DemonSVT
Follow the logic here.

The Escape uses a 3L Duratec engine.

Therefore according to you the pulse wheel should be set on the 3L mark because he used the cover from the 3L Escape engine.

The original "2.5L" cover was discontinued during the 2001 model year. (maybe even before it)

Therefore you could technically say the 2001 2.5L Duratec in the Cougar uses the "Escape 3L front cover" since the cover was made for the Escape but also works on the CDW-27 platform. Therefore Ford deleted the old CDW-27 2.5L cover and hence why I referred to it as the "new 2.5L cover" because 2001+ Cougar owners can relate to that. However it is technically an Escape 3L front cover as the original design was.

However...

MY MAIN POINT which you so blantantly missed was the fact that no matter WHAT COVER YOU USE IN THE CDW-27 PLATFORM you ALWAYS put the pulse wheel on the 2.5L mark. Yes I am shouting because you did not seem to catch it the first time and this point never seems to get through to many people. (Hence the countless times this exact same build error happens)

As for me not having "pity" on someone making this mistake, (your arrogance retort) well read the rest of my previous post. Why have pity on someone that did not bother to do their homework. Especially homework that has been rammed down the throat of anyone that's been on either board in the last 4 years. I do think it sucks to have to tear the engine apart for a simple error and everyone has been in situations like this at one point or another.
This could have been easily avoided by simple homework. When I screw up I don't go blaming other people or making up excuses Puck. :shrug: I normally just swear really loud at my mistake and try to figure out a solution. Nothing to be embarrassed about because sh~t happens.



You said this has been posted several times before and in numerous posts, but I haven't ever seen this before. I am glad this post came up, cause I may have made the same mistake.


We are talking about timing marks here right?


I think the thing to remember here is that we are using the 2.5l ECU, and that is what controls the engine spark and gas. The 2.5 ECU is set on the timing marks of the 2.5l timing set and cam sensor. So putting the setting using the 3.0l references will through the timing off because the ECU will push spark thinking it is set on the 2.5.

I am sure that you could send in for a chip using the 3.0 timing, and it would run perfectly. THe ECU would have to be adjusted using the 3.0 marks.

So does the 3.0 advance or retard timing in relation to the 2.5 marks?

Makes sense to me even if it doesn't to you.

[PuckPuck]

Originally posted by: RodneyBur


You said this has been posted several times before and in numerous posts, but I haven't ever seen this before. I am glad this post came up, cause I may have made the same mistake.



It has yet to be posted once on this board at least.... maybe on CEG but not here. I checked all the faqs, and did a search of current and archived threads for "pulse". every hit talks about the pulse wheel and using the 2.5L cover specifically. There is one post in the FAQ by Norcal that says to put it on the 2.5 setting, however the sentence continues in saying that when using the 3L cover it is unsure of the pulse wheel setting..

Hard to catch something the first time, when it never existed the first time. I've gone "slightly" missing for a year, but I have tried to visit this forum for new info here and there, and have searched it extensively. So unless you live in Demon's head or visit CEG all the time you would of never known of this issue.

Kinda rude and arrogant to yell at someone and beat it into them, when you never told them in the first place isn't it?


Onto better things:
The concensus on the pulse wheel now is.... if you are putting the motor in a CDW-27, regardless of timing cover used, put the pulse wheel on the 2.5 setting.

[FastCougar]

For search engine posterity

Pulse wheel = 2.5L setting
Pulse wheel = 2.5L setting
Pulse wheel = 2.5L setting
Pulse wheel = 2.5L setting
Pulse wheel = 2.5L setting
Pulse wheel = 2.5L setting
Pulse wheel = 2.5L setting
Pulse wheel = 2.5L setting
Pulse wheel = 2.5L setting
Pulse wheel = 2.5L setting
Pulse wheel = 2.5L setting
Pulse wheel = 2.5L setting
Pulse wheel = 2.5L setting

;)

[DemonSVT]

Wow I am amazed it's only come up in 2 posts here.

Once in the 3L FAQ about a year ago and once later in an unrelated post.


Just a quick search of the 3L forum on the CEG site brings up about 3 pages on posts on the pulse wheel position. Figure a couple more if you searched the other Duratec forums. That's a lot more then just "in my head" I would say. Also that's not even including the archives. Likely double that number then.

I guess that's part of the reason why I am always "harping" on folks to research over there first. Oh well you can only lead them to the water... :shrug:

[RodneyBur]

not everyone is as well endowed as you contour folks.

[Kinger]

I hear the reasearch bit and do quite a bit of reaseach for my project snowmobile before starting large projects/mods, but there is something to be said for jumping into something and learning the hard way. School of hard knocks man no way better way for education retention! ha ha

[sonza68]

Originally posted by: DemonSVT
Figure a couple more if you searched the other Duratec forums.

Aside from NECO and CEG, what other Duratec forums are there?

[Moraki]

Some of us don't like to surf the CEG forums because of the constant flame wars and awful attitudes you can run into there..... thanks for proving that notion wrong....

[DemonSVT]

Originally posted by: Moraki
Some of us don't like to surf the CEG forums because of the constant flame wars and awful attitudes you can run into there..... thanks for proving that notion wrong....
Like searching a site for information has anything to do with getting into flame wars Mr. Kettle... :shrug:

I'd rather have a few flame wars then a site that is full of misinformation because folks don't seem to know any better and keep regurgitating the same incorrect information, said Mr. Pot.


'nuff said...

[Rikenbomb]

Originally posted by: sonza68

Originally posted by: DemonSVT
Figure a couple more if you searched the other Duratec forums.

Aside from NECO and CEG, what other Duratec forums are there?

I would like to know too. Somehow this went unnoticed. :shrug:

[ov3n]

fordcontour.org
theres some taurus forum too :)

[slurpee]

After flipping the wheel around, it started. Now the only thing is to get a chip. It stunk pretty bad cause of running rich. Thanks for the help. And now people do know to always use the 2.5 keyway. But, remember, this is a car club. It's all about the cars. If someone asks a question, whether it be stupid or repetative, it doesn't mean open season on ripping on them. Help is all they ask. Like the saying goes...if you can't say it nice, don't say it at all. Ov3n did mention to put it in the 2.5 keyway...he's not wrong. The notion of 3.0 and 2.5 are totally do get confusing because the timing cover is off a 3.0 NOT a 2.5. Even though they might match...the engine is different in size. All that had to be mentioned is the escape timing cover is the same as the 2.5. That's all...nothing more. It gets stupid when people say...why don't you do a search...just say it quick and it's all over. No headaches. Or, don't even answer at all and someone who's gonna answer in a positive way, will. If there is a debate I'm sure someone will mention..It actually needs to be..such and such way. So, I'm glad Demon you had mentioned they were the same, that totally help out, thank you. Ov3n, thank you for mentioning the keyway, I knew that part, but like I've said, we had a 3.0 timing cover, that's where the confusion set in. Thanks to all that have helped...and I'll see ya at cougarfest!!!!

[Moraki]

Glad to hear its runing Slurpee.

and for Demon umm im the 3rd monkey wrenching on this engine... not just some NECO guy looking for a flame war, i have a vested intrest in this.

[DemonSVT]

Originally posted by: Rikenbomb
Originally posted by: sonza68

Originally posted by: DemonSVT
Figure a couple more if you searched the other Duratec forums.

Aside from NECO and CEG, what other Duratec forums are there?

I would like to know too. Somehow this went unnoticed. :shrug:
I meant the other Duratec forums on CEG.

Those 3 pages were from just the "3L forum" alone. Just like this site has separate forums.

[DemonSVT]

Originally posted by: Moraki
and for Demon umm im the 3rd monkey wrenching on this engine... not just some NECO guy looking for a flame war, i have a vested intrest in this.
Well I really am glad every thing turned out well.

~~~

That's great you got the engine up and running. I hope you took my advice and at least swore really loud a few times. It sure beats throwing tools because then you have to get up off your ass and find them. That sucks...

[PuckPuck]

Originally posted by: DemonSVT
That's great you got the engine up and running. I hope you took my advice and at least swore really loud a few times. It sure beats throwing tools because then you have to get up off your ass and find them. That sucks...

I've found a tool once.... the last time i seen it before, was 2 months, and i was pissed :)

[BowDown]

So let me get this straight. My 03' Taurus 3.0L engine... In order to get that running with a 2.5L cougar ECU I need to swap the timing cover and set this pulse wheel to a 2.5L setting? Using the crank sensor from the 2.5L? I'm confused. Anyone got a pic or care to clairfy?

[Massiv]

Originally posted by: BowDown
So let me get this straight. My 03' Taurus 3.0L engine... In order to get that running with a 2.5L cougar ECU I need to swap the timing cover and set this pulse wheel to a 2.5L setting? Using the crank sensor from the 2.5L? I'm confused. Anyone got a pic or care to clairfy?


TO get it running with a 2.5L Cougar ECU, you must:
-Set the pulse wheel to the 2.5L setting.
-Crank sensors are interchangeable IIRC (I used my 3L one)
-Timing covers in SOME cases are interchangeable. Look at it. Is it the same? Mine was, and I used it.

So my setup has:
-2004 Escape 3L block
-2004 Escape 3L timing cover
-2004 Escape 3L Pulse Wheel in 2.5L position
-2004 Escape CKP (Crank Position Sensor)

Could've used my 2.5 stuff across the board there, but just liked the cleaner, newer stuff better!

Massiv.

P.S. The CRITICAL part here, is putting the pulse wheel in the 2.5L position.

[DemonSVT]

Originally posted by: Massiv
Pulse Wheel in 2.5L position

P.S. The CRITICAL part here, is putting the pulse wheel in the 2.5L position.
Just so EVERYONE gets the point...

Use the 2.5L mark on the pulse wheel no matter what!

[gamiller]

thanks for providing use with the answer, Demon. :)

[1999MadCat]

ok so if someone was wanting to swap a 3L excape engine because its crank position sensior is the same as the 2.5 wouldn't need to do anything to it. It comes from the factor in the same positon as the 3L sensior.

So... a basic 3L swap could be done by
Trimming the pilot bearing flush with the crank.
Port matching heads to fit 2.5 lim.
put upper engine mount from 2.5 on while the lim is off. This can be done with the heads on the engine right???
I guess I need to swap Valve covers to have a mounting point for the imrc??

[fordrule]

ok a question on the wheel. there is number stamped above both keyholes

20-25-34Y-30M

AND

30 R

is the 20-25..... the 2.5 setting?

[Rikenbomb]

You may want to search through the CEG forums to find the answer there, if you haven't already.

[fordrule]

found this one on CEG (http://www.contour.org/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=3L&Number=365925&page=&view=&sb=5&o=&fpart=all&vc=1)

with this diagram

You need to use the keyway furthest away from the missing tooth.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid72/pedfcaa50fb461b2904f76913e74ea21c/fb812c8a.jpg

but didn't say anything about the numbers stamped on the pulse wheel itself

[NorCalCoug]

IIRC the 20-25-34Y-30M mark is the one furthest from the "missing tooth", and thus the 2.5L setting.

For posterity and from experience helping build a 3L Hybrid:

Pulse wheel = 2.5L setting
Ad infinitum, ad nauseum. ;)

[fordrule]

anyone with a pic of the pulse wheel installed correctly

[fordrule]

:banghead: i think i am just confusing myself :banghead:

[jrak123]

DING DING DING!!!! we have a winner....


Exactly what I was going to say, sorry about your luck dude :disgust:

[fordrule]

well here is a pic of my pulse wheel installed...........

http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/7567/pulsewheel5iw.jpg

[rbls4ever]

mmmmm....... i vote for a sticky ickkity