Doing 3.0 swap turbo'ed soon and have a few questions

[docfeelgood111]

Ok...I have a 2001 for escape engine I'm using.New water pump metal blades, new power steering pump as mine in begining to crack. I already have the 9:1 forged diamond racing pistons,75 mm proflow MAF,Ford Racing wires,getting pauter rods, clevtite bearings,T3/T4 hyrbrid turbonetics turbo .48 trim,ITS custom turbo headers, turbosmart type III supersonic 38 mm BOV & Turbosmart ultragate 35 mm wastegate, turbosmart boost controller,using ADC IC,Arizona dyno chip,#39 injectors, 255 walbro fuel pump,3" exhaust,High Flow Cat,DMD, getting kinger to do the works on the heads, UIM max'd out, svt tb optimized,Svt radiator,knife edging crank (parasitic power loses)and denso iridium spark plugs one step colder.

Now my questions are:

1.what should I do with the LIM? any upgrades?

2.Oil pan...Does the 2001 ford escape come with the revised oil pan?

3. Oil system upgrades? High volume oil pump?

4. Is there any uprades I need to do or should do to the ignition systems?

5. Should I use the lightened flywheel? I was thinking the fidanza.

6. Which cams should I use? I heard the 3L cams are better for turbo application is this true or should I use the SVT cams?

7. What type of muffler should I use? I really love the sound of my flowmaster 40 series...could I use this type?...I'm guessing it wouldn't be good for a turbo setup


I know I am leaving something out. That is all I can think of right now. If you guys can think of any others please let me know. I'm not trying to leave anything out. I will also be posting this in the turbo forum just so you know. Thanks alot for all and any help in advance....:grouphug:

[docfeelgood111]

Don't worry about tranny upgrades posting that in another post.

[FastCougar]

That sounds EXACTLY like my parts list except I am doing an ADC turbo later, after getting the car on the road and all the bugs worked out ;)

1. what should I do with the LIM? any upgrades?: Since it will be turbo'd, you might want to look up a member called metillman (sp?) who was recently offering a machined throttle body and offered LIM's as well. You might also want to call SHO-Shop as they once offered this service. Off boost power will be down because of this, but once the turbo spools up, you will be able to force more air in there.

2. Oil pan...Does the 2001 ford escape come with the revised oil pan?: 01+ blocks came with a version of the revised pan, but that was once again redesigned in 2003 ... I would do what DemonSVT recommends and get the revised oil pan, windage tray & main bolts.

3. Oil system upgrades? High volume oil pump?: The oil system on the duratec is already too good. If you want, for peace of mind, you could do an accusump.

4. Is there any uprades I need to do or should do to the ignition systems?: No, it's great out of the box!

5. Should I use the lightened flywheel? I was thinking the fidanza?: Yes, I have driven in a 3L with a Fidanza and it's VERY NICE!

6. Which cams should I use? I heard the 3L cams are better for turbo application is this true or should I use the SVT cams? Keep the 3L cams for the turbo. I'm personally going to keep the SVT's for more power since I'm not going to turbo right away.

7. What type of muffler should I use? I really love the sound of my flowmaster 40 series...could I use this type?...I'm guessing it wouldn't be good for a turbo setup: The turbo will definitely affect the exhaust noise by quieting it down quite a bit. Keep that in mind. I have heard MANY non-turbo flowmaster setups and I think that they can be obnoxious, but with a turbo on there to mute it some, I would think it would be nice, but have never heard one before ... perhaps some the turbo'd contour guys can chime in.

[DemonSVT]

That advice is very good.

I would add:

DO NOT enlarge the LIM. The RLIM is plenty large as it is. There is no benefit to enlarging it, but there are many negatives.

Use only a quality straight through muffler. Dynomax Ultraflow or Magnaflow are good options. Stay far away from any baffled of chambered mufflers.

[FastCougar]

From Kinger's thread ... I have since deleted your post because it's off-topic to the discussion:
Originally posted by: docfeelgood111
So the 3L cams are better for a turbo application? Why would they be better than the svt for this application? Sorry if this has been answered before just never heard that. Thanks alot!SVT cams have more valve overlap. The more boost you apply, the more that will be lost into the exhaust due to the overlapping valves. 3L cams have less overlap, which means that it will hold more boost. For example, a boosted 3L cammed 3L engine running 8psi of boost would be like a boosted SVT cammed 3L engine running 9.5psi of boost ... 1.5psi of boost is lost into the exhaust due to the valve overlap. 3L cams will make more power at the same boost level. This is merely an example, not actual data.

However, in off-boost situations (city cruising), you will have more power with the SVT cams for sure! Since my car will be street driven for awhile before getting the turbo kit, I have decided to retain the SVT cams instead of the 3L cams.

[DemonSVT]

Originally posted by: FastCougar For example, a boosted 3L cammed 3L engine running 8psi of boost would be like a boosted SVT cammed 3L engine running 9.5psi of boost ... 1.5psi of boost is lost into the exhaust due to the valve overlap. 3L cams will make more power at the same boost level. This is merely an example, not actual data.

However, in off-boost situations (city cruising), you will have more power with the SVT cams for sure! Since my car will be street driven for awhile before getting the turbo kit, I have decided to retain the SVT cams instead of the 3L cams.
Good analogy. Proper technical thinking. Incorrect results at even moderate boost levels. (i.e. anything not high boost)

The SVT cams may have more overlap but they also have better valve timing, faster ramps, and longer duration & powerband.

The stock cams (I don't know which 3L cams you mean split or oval???) will definitely be more efficient in their optimum rpm range but out of it they will not be even with the overlap difference. Also the overlap difference is nothing really major for boosted applications. Stock Split to SVT is only 23 verses 39. Both are far less then ideal for boosted applications. The slow stock ramps are a hindrance even with it's 16 degrees less of overlap.

Now stock oval port cams are better suited to boost. Only 16 degrees of overlap and a intake opening very close the TDC. However with the oval port exhaust cam the setup DIES in a big hurry.

The idea here is to swap in a Mazda 6 exhaust cam (better duration then an SVT with a slight trade off in optimum valve points) Then you can likely extend your powerband and still retain the good characteristics of the oval port intake cam. Overlap only increases to 21 degrees but it's all exhaust cam which is a benefit to boosted applications.
The best part is the cams are small pitch (match oval cams) and are much more common then SVT cams!

[ilovemycar]

Writing in my notes....

For boosted 3L go with Oval port intake cams and Mazda 6 exhaust cams.....Is this correct? Especially considering i dont have any SVT parts so just buying some cams could be expensive especially when not needed for high boost....

[FastCougar]

Originally posted by: DemonSVT

Good analogy. Proper technical thinking. Incorrect results at even moderate boost levels. (i.e. anything not high boost)Define hight boost ... I'm aiming for 1 bar (14.7psi) at the track + race gas and .5bar (7.35psi) for around town + 93 octane. I figured by the time I exceeded 10psi, I would be bleeding boost into the exhaust. If I read you correctly, I might was well stay with the SVT cams ;)

[DemonSVT]

Originally posted by: FastCougar
Define hight boost ... I'm aiming for 1 bar (14.7psi) at the track + race gas and .5bar (7.35psi) for around town + 93 octane. I figured by the time I exceeded 10psi, I would be bleeding boost into the exhaust. If I read you correctly, I might was well stay with the SVT cams ;)
Around 1 bar and higher is "high" boost. "HOWEVER" that is compression ratio dependant.
If you lower the CR a bunch you are digging your hole deeper using the SVT cams

IMO too many people have dropped the CR off the deep end when building their setup. The reason is they are not springing for custom cams and to boot the tractability of high boost is beyond pointless below 90mph. Low CR (read 9 or lower) can sustain significant boost. Much more then anyone has come close to trying. (18psi is the current max)

A stock SVT (10.3CR) ran 14psi on a T28 without any hiccups. 3L's (10.3-4CR split & 10.1CR oval) ran 10psi on a large T3/4 60 trim.

I think the SVT cams start showing significant loses above 12psi. So if high compression can handle that boost level when intercooled and properly tuned why lower it? At least why lower it A LOT! Lower compression means less efficiency and output with what you put in the engine.
If you want to significantly lower compression and run very high boost you should at least use custom cams. Low compression is pretty WORTHLESS without high boost and cams that cam handle it.

For example:
Tom's bone stock budget 3L made ~330/330 on 9psi. Suneil's (fully modified!) made 400/360 on 18psi. 9psi was only worth 70/30 because of the major drop in CR. That's meager gains to say the least. With SVT cams Tom's likely would have made 350/310. That's just a 50/50 gain for 9psi. (for those that know boost that's not even half of what it would be per psi comparatively!)

Low compression and high boost should try that oval combo I listed or custom cams. The lower CR is just far too much to over come otherwise.

Near stock CR can use the SVT cams and it will make more power per boost (comparatively) because of the higher efficiency.
However the combo of oval intake & 6 exhaust looks so promising I'd still recommend it over the SVT cams. That setup looks like a good combo for most any boost levels. At least until it is proven otherwise.

[fordrule]

so ur saying the 01 oval port intake cam(stock) and a mazda 6 exhaust cam is the ideal setup for boost, what about the street would that be worth doing for street/track driven car. I am already getting kingers 01 3l oval port heads when i get hm just don't know what cams

[FastCougar]

I'm running 9.5:1 CR and with porting the chamber, I should be down around 9.3:1-9.2:1. Combined with the SVT cams, I should be good. My only down side is the intake & exhaust will be cut/flowed for turbo use and I will not be installing the turbo for 1+ years. I figure I should be down about 15-20hp from normal 3L + SVT cams + NA porting ... time will tell. Once it's tuned, we will know. Rods & bearings are being ordered next month and engine work & head work will be done in late February/eary March.

[brade07]

I would deffinetly look into upgrading your oil system, as much as possible since the escape engines have had issues with oil starvation like our engines.

This is because the 3.0l escape duratec is a different engine than the taurus 3.0l which doesnt have any oil problems.

[FastCougar]

Originally posted by: brade07
I would deffinetly look into upgrading your oil system, as much as possible since the escape engines have had issues with oil starvation like our engines.

This is because the 3.0l escape duratec is a different engine than the taurus 3.0l which doesnt have any oil problems.What are you talking about? The Taurus and Escape blocks are identical!

[DemonSVT]

Originally posted by: brade07
I would deffinetly look into upgrading your oil system, as much as possible since the escape engines have had issues with oil starvation like our engines.

This is because the 3.0l escape duratec is a different engine than the taurus 3.0l which doesnt have any oil problems.
You are incorrect about that though.

Both engines use the same block, heads, and internals. The only differences are some of the cover pieces.

The 03+ Escapes (actually Duratecs in general) are at question because of the suspected Zircon issue.
This issue was suppose to be for a specific batch (production run) of 3L Duratecs so perhaps the bulk of them were used in Escapes. (makes sense to ship batches to one production plant.) Otherwise I can't tell you why the same year Taurus engines do not seem to be having near the same issues.


The 2.5L engine's main starvation problem is from lack of proper head drainage at moderate or higher rpm levels. That is a different problem altogether.

That does bring up a thought though.
The only thing the Escape and all 2.5L's share in common that the Taurus doesn't is the oil pan.
On top of that the Escape is only specified to have 5.5qts of oil where as the Taurus manual I just checked stated 6qts. We know that 5.5qts can not be enough at times.
Add that with the fact the Escape will have a lot more body roll in a corner (tires, ride height, springs) and you could effectively be having the same cornering issue that plagues the 2.5L

Just a thought...


Either way I'm glad I have a 02 Taurus engine and am running 6 quarts of Mobil 1 on Clevite bearings. :cool:

[Instigator]

anybody wanna buy my SVT cams?

[fordrule]

hmmmmm

oval/mazda 6 cam set up or svt cams......

[Instigator]

i have decided to be a guinea pig for the OP intake/mazda6 exhaust cam setup, looking at the cam specs it seems that DemonSVT has come up with a great idea

seeing as how i will be running 8.5:1 compression with forged everything, ill be running at least 20 lbs of boost so my SVT cams i planned to use dont seem like a good idea anymore.............

[docfeelgood111]

So when are you going to be doing your swap instigator? If you do yours before I do let me know how the op/mazda 6 cams turn out for you.

[docfeelgood111]

Also the piper cams where you send off yours and get them regrinded. Would that be any better for a turbo application?

FORD DURATEC 2.5 V6
Valve lifts quoted assume a rocker ratio of 1.7:1

Part No. DURV6BP270

Application FAST ROAD

PowerBand 1800-7000

Power Increase 20 BHP

Duration
Inl Exh 258 deg 258 deg

Valve Lift .369" .369"
Inl Exh 9.37mm 9.38mm

Timing 21 - 57
57 - 21

Full Lift 108 deg 108 deg
Inl ATDC Exh BTDC

Lift @ TDC
with clearance
Inl Exh N/A N/A

Valve
Clearance HYDRAULIC

[docfeelgood111]

n/m...I was just reading up on these and seen they have more overlap than the svt cams. Think demon said it.

[DemonSVT]

Originally posted by: docfeelgood111n/m...I was just reading up on these and seen they have more overlap than the svt cams. Think demon said it.
That I did...

The Piper cams are not quite as good as the SVT cams.

More overlap, worse valve timing points, shorter power band.

They do look to make more power then the SVT cams above 6800-7000rpm.
However the trade off is much weaker power under the curve.

You folks all know how I feel about "power under the curve." More average power is better then more peak power. :cool: