Total SC Newb

[nmrfl17]

Im just looking into these to possibly save up for one.

But what all do I need to put this in? The kid - looking at the "tuner" kit whatever.. But Do i need to Forge my pistons? Purchase better ones? What needs done to my engine?


Thanks-

[DemonSVT]

Save up about 2k more then the kit costs because YOU WILL NEED IT to make it reliable.

'nuff said.

[Guile]

You will need as follows...

Solid motor mounts
Heavy duty clutch
Fuel modification for delivery
a/f gauge "wideband"
boost gauge
a way to back off timing

Dont worry about better pistons unless you plan on running more than the recommended amount of boost.
Also you might want to consider a shaft upgrad for the charger as there has been hell to pay for people that didnt get it upgraded. Unless the kit finally fixed the problem? "if anyone knows for sure please chime in"

I will add more to this later as Im sure you have more questions please fire away.

[iistevo84ii]

Scrap the idea now.....

There are better options out there for power.

[GrandMasterKhan]

Originally posted by: iistevo84ii
Scrap the idea now.....

There are better options out there for power.

...known as the ADC turbo kit.

[Badazzcougar]

They did fix the shaft problem I got the updated shaft on mine but I got everything for the old price. The shaft is alot beefier then the spline setup. I havent had any other problems with my setup Im still on the stock clutch and diff and the thing still takes off like a bat out of hell.

[StangKiller]

Stock setup on the engine will last. This from experience.

You will have to replace the clutch to a stage 3, an LSD will need to be installed also, the stock diff goes real fast with that kind of power.

You will need to modify the fuel system, a larger fuel pump is absolute, no matter what Vortech tells you. It is best to try and find a return style setup from an SVT Contour for this, it will make things so much easier.

The one thing that I have not done yet that I would recommend for the setup and it is expensive, is to go to an independent fuel management system, no FMU's, they suck and you can not get the same performance out of them that an IFMS can provide. I recommend Haltech E6X or the newer one if it has made it out yet. PM me if you have any other questions. I have been through all of this before.

[DemonSVT]

Originally posted by: StangKiller
1. It is best to try and find a return style setup from an SVT Contour for this, it will make things so much easier.

2. The one thing that I have not done yet that I would recommend for the setup and it is expensive, is to go to an independent fuel management system, no FMU's, they suck and you can not get the same performance out of them that an IFMS can provide. I recommend Haltech E6X or the newer one if it has made it out yet.
I disagree on all points.

1. Either returnless or return are basically the same to setup.
Larger injectors, new pump (not needed on returnless for under 300 wheels BTW!), and a custom chip.

Returnless cars also have the better PCM (among other things like larger LIM and revised MTX!!!) and the TwEECer is available!


2. A stand alone is Waste of money here!!! The EEC-V is far more advanced & more then up to the task of controlling everything. It is also keeps full drivability and emissions.

[Guile]

Explain the "not needed on 300hp" statement?

[StangKiller]

Originally posted by: DemonSVT

Originally posted by: StangKiller
1. It is best to try and find a return style setup from an SVT Contour for this, it will make things so much easier.

2. The one thing that I have not done yet that I would recommend for the setup and it is expensive, is to go to an independent fuel management system, no FMU's, they suck and you can not get the same performance out of them that an IFMS can provide. I recommend Haltech E6X or the newer one if it has made it out yet.
I disagree on all points.

1. Either returnless or return are basically the same to setup.
Larger injectors, new pump (not needed on returnless for under 300 wheels BTW!), and a custom chip.

Returnless cars also have the better PCM (among other things like larger LIM and revised MTX!!!) and the TwEECer is available!


2. A stand alone is Waste of money here!!! The EEC-V is far more advanced & more then up to the task of controlling everything. It is also keeps full drivability and emissions.


First the tuner kit from Vortech comes with larger injectors because they are needed. And the fuel pump in the stock Cougars is small, very small for the amount of fuel you want to put to the injectors, along with the fact that it is a variable voltage pump. These are very hard to tune, ask any tuner, in a returnless setup. Also, the tuner kit done right gets over 300hp to the wheels, which means it is putting more than that at the flywheel. And let me say this. Anyone that has put together a setup with a returnless and return style fuel rail with any tuning experience would say that the return style is far easier and does not require as much modification.

Next, I have an SCT Superchip in mine right now, a fully reprogrammable setup and it runs well, but I know with an independent setup it would run alot better. It would also be easier to tune. And how would an independent unit lose drivability and emissions. If anything it would help. I am the first to state that the FMU is just a band aid and is not very reliable for the amount of fuel you should be putting in compared to the boost you are making.

[DemonSVT]

Originally posted by: Guile
Explain the "not needed on 300hp" statement?
The returnless pump maxes at around 300 wheels.

Dyno tested ad nauseam on the turbo mule.

Now the return pump has to be upgraded above ~235-240 wheels.

[DemonSVT]

Originally posted by: StangKiller
1. First the tuner kit from Vortech comes with larger injectors because they are needed.

2. And the fuel pump in the stock Cougars is small, very small for the amount of fuel you want to put to the injectors, along with the fact that it is a variable voltage pump. These are very hard to tune, ask any tuner, in a returnless setup.

3. Also, the tuner kit done right gets over 300hp to the wheels, which means it is putting more than that at the flywheel.

4. And let me say this. Anyone that has put together a setup with a returnless and return style fuel rail with any tuning experience would say that the return style is far easier and does not require as much modification.

5. Next, I have an SCT Superchip in mine right now, a fully reprogrammable setup and it runs well, but I know with an independent setup it would run alot better. It would also be easier to tune. And how would an independent unit lose drivability and emissions. If anything it would help.
1. When did I say they are not needed???

2. The return pump is too small. Again I stated that and ONLY said the returnless pump is good to about 300 wheels.
Also Vortech sends that POS inline pump in their kit. That's a piss poor way to hack the fuel system. (to a greater extent so is an FMU which it appears we both agree on)
A simple in tank upgrade is the best route for a return car. I suspect we both agree on that part as well.

I will also agree that the SVTF pump is a logical upgrade for a returnless car. It's not "required" but a good safety measure especially if you have not removed the POS filter disc on the bottom of the assembly.

Returnless is "Hard to tune?" Maybe if the tuner sucks! They are not hard to tune be any means. Sound like you went to a horrible tuning shop! They probably hack tune with MAF functions and multipliers don't they. :rolleyes: Don't get me started on 90% of the "so called tuners" Sorry but that's a bad subject!
Matter of fact what would make them harder to tune then a return setup? Honestly now; I want to know your reasoning behind that statement.

3. Not from a stock Duratec engine it doesn't break 300 wheels. Even SVT's don't break 300 wheels. Most SVT's are 270-280HP at the wheels with 200-210 TQ.

Also to get the high rpm power from the Vortech you have to spin the engine above 7000rpm.
I hope you've done some oiling upgrades!!! Also be a good idea to put in some clevite rod bearings!
Shaft bearing anyone!
Now the stock cams will fall off fast so maybe spinning that high is not worth it like with an SVT engine/cams???

4. Modification for what??? Larger injectors and custom chip. What's hard about that? What modification is required???
Please explain this in detail since you are not making sense to me here.
The returnless rail is significantly larger diameter then return so it will have a higher maximum fuel flow but that's not even an issue because both return & returnless engines have seen nearly 400 wheels without batting an eyelash and with nothing but larger injectors, recal'd MAF, AND TUNING FROM SOMEONE THAT HAS A CLUE!!!

5. That is just Not true in the slightest; plain & simple.
A stand alone is far INFERIOR to the EEC-V. Now if you were building a RACE ONLY engine and had no need for daily drivability, emissions, OBD, closed loop feedback, et cetera then having a much simpler PCM setup would be preferred. You'd only have the feedback you wanted and you'd tune each individual VE table (speed density) on a varying dyno ad nauseam until you matched your setup. Now if weather changed your peak power would drop because it does not have the ability to adapt for air mass and load (calculated countless times using even more tables) and you would have to alter your tune again and again but it "would be a simpler setup" right?

If you had a race car and a team to program it for every condition and never had to drive it when it rained or was cold or was (insert any changing condition here) Well you see where this is going...

And if you get a stand alone MAF based load calculating system then why pay big money for what you already have to the power of 10. Exactly!!! Lose/lose...

People "dis" stock electronics without even understanding that many are far more advanced then any stand alone ever will be. Ford actually has one of the best management systems ever made. Even EEC-IV is above most stand alones (heck many are based on it!) and any EEC-V is light years beyond them. Late model EEC-V's (very late 99+) even more so.


BTW - I tune my own car with a TwEECer and have for over 2 years. It's returnless. It seems to run pretty well...

So either I'm the best tuner & fabricator on the planet because returnless is hard to work with and harder to tune or... :shrug: :biggrin:

[StangKiller]

I will only say this about your explanation above.
Not once did you mention the fact that your tweecer can not handle injector duration due to increased boost. So you let me know how you plan on handling that. As for a chip on a vehicle that has no forced induction, yeah they are ten times better, but when a stock computer is not setup to handle any form of boost, well, that will never be able to, that simple. You may be good with a non forced induction car, but adding any boost is very hard to deal with. That is where you run into problems with a returnless system because you have to find a way to adjust duration and pressure when there is a fluctuation between the boost and the rpms. They are not always a perfect match and very few chips on a stock ecu can handle that. You have to have something like a MAP instead of a MAF. That is when it is time to switch to a independent system. And they are easily daily driver situations for the independent units.

[DemonSVT]

Originally posted by: StangKiller
1. Not once did you mention the fact that your tweecer can not handle injector duration due to increased boost. So you let me know how you plan on handling that.

2. As for a chip on a vehicle that has no forced induction, yeah they are ten times better, but when a stock computer is not setup to handle any form of boost, well, that will never be able to, that simple.

3. You may be good with a non forced induction car, but adding any boost is very hard to deal with.

4. That is where you run into problems with a returnless system because you have to find a way to adjust duration and pressure when there is a fluctuation between the boost and the rpms. They are not always a perfect match and very few chips on a stock ecu can handle that. You have to have something like a MAP instead of a MAF.
1. It's "LOAD" based! You can easily change the load scale to accommodate up to 1 bar. It's as simple as changing a few entries if the tuner knows what the hell they are doing.
Now after 1 bar (14.7psi) you would have to scale the incoming load calculation but again that is nothing more then a calculation of several fancy equations and is very easily tuned on a dyno. Again something a tuner who has a clue and proper experience could do. It's something I can do in my sleep.

2. Your thinking is extremely flawed here. From what I have been reading you have no real knowledge of EEC-V or it's capabilities and code structure.
What about the countless boosted Ford vehicles running the OEM PCM and that were NA stock??? I'll leave it at that.

3. Again it's not a big deal. Get over it already.
I know I have stated it countless times before but you have to realize that the majority of the "so called" tuners out there are morons. They can "hack tune" a setup to get it "passable" at that particular moment but beyond that are really worthless.

4. Returnless flows a rate determined by the programming in the PCM which is based on countless tables and calculations. Once it is setup properly it has nearly 100% correct adaptive ability. If you raise or lower the boost it autocalculates (faster then most home computers btw) the "LOAD BASED" differences and compensates accordingly. That's the whole beauty of a MAF based system and a highly advance powertrain management computer.
Speed Density/MAP can not adapt to changes outside a very minor window and hence why it needs constant tuning if you make any type of change. Also why a lot of "so called tuners" hack with FMU's or RFPR's or et cetera because simply "dumping" extra fuel makes up for actually needing to have a clue about truly tuning a setup.


BTW I've written many programs for "boosted" cars (both EEC-V & EEC-IV) so don't think just because mine is not that I have no experience or clue how it needs to be done.

[Guile]

BTW I've written many programs for "boosted" cars (both EEC-V & EEC-IV) so don't think just because mine is not that I have no experience or clue how it needs to be done.[/quote]

For who and what cars? Just wondering....:confused:

[DemonSVT]

Several Duratec based cars both boosted and NA

Twin turbo Mustang, S/C Mustang, & a couple NA Mustangs

Conquest TSi (HKS add on & YES a BCFPR ;) )

1G Eclipse

I even pseudo hack tuned the wife's Z24 a little bit... (It's speed density & fixed PROM. I had no choice. :tongue: )

For that matter I could tune any Ford product with the proper software/chip setup.

I honestly don't find tuning hard at all. Then again I've spent long hour buried in the code and in application of the knowledge so it's not like it came for free.

[Guile]

Was all that for a shop or just as a hobbie? What do you do for living? Sorry, just curious.

[DemonSVT]

I used to be an ASE mechanic before & for a short time after the Air Force.

I still do a bit of work out of my garage and some larger projects at a friend's small shop. (i.e. he has a lift :biggrin: )
The twin turbo Mustang was his. I designed that entire setup including engine. He did the majority of the work of course since it was his car and was his fabrication project. (I only did the piping and IC mounting using a Spearco mounted horizontally behind the radiator)
The other Mustangs were all from people he knew or brought in.

The Duratec programming and advice was spread around. From Street Flight to Tom's turbo engines.

I know I surely sound conceited by now but tuning is easy for me. For a while there it was all I did day in and day out when working on the XGT1 code.
The learning curve is definitely like a tall cliff but both hard research and trial & error is a good teacher. I also take great notes! like: DON'T DO THAT AGAIN!!!

The Eclipse & Conquest TSi were my 2 cars before this.
I definitely miss the TSi though not the part's costs. Unique, RWD with IRS, 5-speed, FAST
The Eclipse was nice but FWD (GST) so F~ck it. I'm sick of FWD... :biggrin:

I suppose I could have thrown in my 2.2L turbo work. I was playing with Mopar turbos before they were cool. I had an 87 Shelby Charger. Horrible car to use the "Shelby" name on but the Turbo 2 engine was near indestructible. It took to mods well even back when there was no way to "program" the computers. You can bet I was hack tuning my ass off. custom_images/emoticons/shocked.gif :flushed: :rofl:

[Guile]

I finally understand were you are coming from, I myself have a little bit of back ground and yes I do find you almost always sound conceited.

How did you like the 2.2 turbo in the shelby? I looked at a couple of those a while back 'two years or more' found a rwd merkur instead and have been toying with it off an on. Kind of what I base all of my FI experience on so yes I hack away all the time on it. prefer to have a way to control things without having to reprogram the computer haha. I built an 67 mustang so Im more familiar with pushrods and carbs than efi but like to think myself capabible of tuning or "hacking it" as i seem to fit into the hack area on here more than the computer tuner. Which is kinda funny considering im a network admin for a living ??? Anyhow, know anyone who has the SCT cutomchip program and is willing to share? Pm me would ya.

Later