:ugh; Should I be worried? (56K, insert witty comment here about why you shouldn't load this thread)

[DEVIOUSDEV]

So I dropped my block, rods, bearings, etc off at the Engine Builder on June 29th so that I would have it in time for the final assembly (which was supposed to be tomorrow)... they were supposed to order the Pistons (.50 overbore), and have the block bored out to accommodate the new pistons, Knife-Edge the Crank, weld the Oil Feed and Return Lines, and give the block an acid bath (to clean off the slight corrosion on the outside, and caked-on oil on the inside). Then, I was supposed to get the block back from them to do some final prep work on the outside of it prior to the final assembly of the lower end (that they were going to do for me).

Wellllll after returning from being out of town for 2 weeks (while they were supposed to be working on it), I call them to find out the status... and they have done absolutely nothing to it :disgust: and "haven't received the pistons yet" ... so the next day I get a call from them telling me that the Pistons had been on backorder and now Federal Mogul will not be making them anymore because there wasn't enough demand for them. So he recommended just ordering the stock bore, and seeing if the fitment would be alright with the slight amount of honing they had to do to the block to clean up the cylinder walls (thinking that we would just add an further anti friction coating to the pistons if we had to.

Long story short, the Pistons that were "sent out" 2.5 weeks ago via UPS just got there today (which I am not thinking was the fault of UPS at all, but in fact numerous errors on the part of the builder), and I just picked up the stuff to finish the prep work... and I find the following...

Notice anything different between the two block surfaces?
http://www.fastcougar.com/forums/attachments/3L-S-BlockSurface.jpg

OK I'll give you a hint...

http://www.fastcougar.com/forums/attachments/3L-S-FugUp-1.jpg

http://www.fastcougar.com/forums/attachments/3L-S-FugUp-2.jpg

They only appear to have decked half of the block, and then there is that gouge on the other side (which to his credit, he did point out to me before giving it back, and promised to take care of when I bring it back to them on Monday morning)... BUTTTTT they obviously didn't give it an acid bath, and they neglected to fill the oil feed hole (in the top right of the first picture)

So then I'm looking at the Stock Replacement Pistons, and notice something odd about them... (can you tell?)

http://www.fastcougar.com/forums/attachments/3L-S-Pistons-2.jpg

... that they don't have the recesses for the valves in them...

http://www.fastcougar.com/forums/attachments/3L-S-Pistons-3.jpg

But they are the revised design with the upgraded ring landings, etc...

http://www.fastcougar.com/forums/attachments/3L-S-Pistons-1.jpg

Now what I can't tell is if this is going to be a problem with the larger 3.0 valves on my 2.5L heads... especially with them having decked the block (even though I stressed to them MANY times that the piston-valve clearance on these engines is very close, so to be very light in whatever machining they do). The new pistons are definitely shorter than the last ones... but I can't tell if its going to be enough...

http://www.fastcougar.com/forums/attachments/3L-S-Pistons-4.jpg

So I'm a little worried, especially considering that this whole thing needs to be back in the car on Wednesday or Thursday of this coming week so that I have enough time to break it in before I have to drive the 400 miles to get back home :ugh:

I was expecting a little more out of this shop, especially since they did the motor for the Falcon on a recent episode of Overhaulin ... but I guess you never can tell with these places :shrug:

Any thoughts/ suggestions/ cautions on what I should do here?


On a side note, I don't want this thread to be all negative, so here are some pics of the good stuff I got today :biggrin:

The knife-edged Crank :evil: (which they source out to another shop to do, which might explain why it looks so nice)

http://www.fastcougar.com/forums/attachments/3L-S-KnifeEdge.jpg

85% of the Conversion pieces I need for the atx-mtx swap (in addition to a bunch of bolts, upgraded windage tray, etc)

http://www.fastcougar.com/forums/attachments/3L-S-ConversionParts.jpg

[Rikenbomb]

Well I recieved pictures that DanG has taken of the 3L Hybrid build and the first thing I noticed was the missing recesses for the valves on the 0.5mm overbore pistons.

As you know there hasn't been a problem with it at all. Everything seems to be okay, especially since DanG did a boroscope of each cylinder.

When DanG mentioned that there was 0,1" clearance between the piston and the valves I was shocked.

Perhaps you can do a dye test of some sort to ensure that you will not be smacking valves.

I'm at work now but I'll post pics of the pistons.

[DEVIOUSDEV]

I remember those pics, and I couldn't think clearly enough to know if I was confusing the ones of his original build with the new one... so you're saying that confirms that they would be OK with the original deck... but I am concerned because of the machining that they have done, and will still need to do to get rid of that gouge...

[Rikenbomb]

That gouge has me concerned. You think that they may need to fill that?

They should fork you over a new block for their screw up.

[DEVIOUSDEV]

He said they'd have to fill it, and then deck that side again (not that they ever did in the first place, since you can still see the gasket material on there :rolleyes: )

He has told me me several times that he has a couple 3.0s in the back that he's been wanting to tear down to do some stuff for (i.e. stroker kits)... so its not too far off of a possibility to get him to give me one of those...

[PuckPuck]

piston hieight is measured from center of wrist pin hole... not from the bottom of the piston skirt....

hard to tell from the pics, and when you are getting to this type of thing, a micrometer is usually a better way to tell... but measure the piston height from the wrist pin hole instead of the piston skirt to determine if they are indeed slightly shorter....

i bent 10 of 12 valves on a head once, so i can attest to the tight clearances in this engines....

[Livinsvt]

You will have to check piston to valve. Are those a forged piston, or Hyperutectic? The machine shop maybe be able to machine the reliefs in. Not sure if you can do that with a hyperutectic or if the shop is even cabable enough. If the piston is shorter that may effect compression ratio, maybe not by much though. I would be realy concerned about that gouge as well.

[sdgenxr]

PuckPuck is right in measuring the piston from the wrist pin to the top of the piston. What you can do is when you assemble the engine is put a little bit of clay on the top of the piston, bolt the heads on, and give it a full two rotations of the crank nice and slowly. Disassemeble and check how much the clay was pressed from the valves. I will bring my micrometer up with me to check some clearences if you would like. Keep me up to date Devin.

[DEVIOUSDEV]

there is a .012" difference between the two (the Sealed Power Hypertutectic is shorter) This is measured from the top of the wrist pin, to the top of the piston...

I'm not sure if I would even trust this shop to machine notches into the top at this point... and I think I may make them check the piston to valve clearance on there (while I watch) so that I can show them exactly what it is that they screwed up (if they did) Because I don't want to get everything home after paying for it, find that there is no clearance, and have them tell me "tough"... I don't have "time" for that ;)

If the compression ratio was slightly lower, I would be OK with that, since the Hybrids run so high anyway... with all the other stuff I'm doing, I doubt that I would lose much power from that...but with how much they are decking the block... I'm not sure there is a drop...

Thanks John, it would be great if you could bring the micrometer with you (in the event that they actually have this finished by wednesday :rolleyes: )

[NorCalCoug]

If they deck the block that brings the pistons closer to the valves, and increases compression ratio. This may cause even more of a problem with the pistons clearing the valves, actually, depending on how much it was decked...

[DEVIOUSDEV]

Thats exactly why I'm worried... short of getting a new block or lower compression pistons... is there anything else that could be done if the clearance's were too small?

[NorCalCoug]

.. Not much, except maybe a thicker head gasket. But I don't know if they make that for our car. :shrug:

[sdgenxr]

If you measure from the top of the wrist pin to the top of the piston, then you assume that the wrist pins are the same diameter, and they should be. I would check them before you assume!

Once the block is decked and you feel that the pistons will interfere with the valves, you can always have the pistons machined for valve relief cuts if there is enough meat on the top of them. But again, that is more $$$.

Did Nuty1der ever make it up there with the goodies I gave him?

[Livinsvt]

Originally posted by: sdgenxr
Once the block is decked and you feel that the pistons will interfere with the valves, you can always have the pistons machined for valve relief cuts if there is enough meat on the top of them. But again, that is more $$$.



Do I hear an echo :ugh:

[DEVIOUSDEV]

There was definitely some re-iteration ;)

The wrist pins are the same diameter, and I've checked the part number for the pistons, and it is the correct one for the 2000 Taurus Block...

Nuty1der never did show up John, and didn't even call me to let me know :shrug:

[Rikenbomb]

Okay Here is the pic of the Hybrid with the pistons without the recesses.

This might renew some confidence but the ammount taken off decking of the block is what matters.

http://www.fastcougar.com/forums/attachments/Hybrid%20pistons%2Ejpg

[DEVIOUSDEV]

Oh so sweet :biggrin: Thanks Rikenbomb

[DEVIOUSDEV]

As an update (for those of you waiting with baited breath), I dropped it back off at the shop yesterday morning and told the owner of my concerns... and he reassured me that they only take off .01 of an inch when they deck it ( they "just kiss it")

So we'll see :shrug: I'm bringing the heads with me when I pick it up, so they can check the Piston-valve clearance right there in front of me...