turbo vs super

[gonzo666]

I was look at a web sight that caught my attention it was spmotorsports.com/contour_supercharger.html it had a supercharger but it looked like a turbo i thought that a supercharger was belt driven. I know that a turbo works with the exhaust and supercharger is in the intake also the price for the super charger is about 1500 less than the turbo in customcougars.com so i was wonder what the draw back was to the both of them.

[pgtatx]

A turbocharger is an exhaust driven centrifugal supercharger by definition.

They are both air compressors... The Vortech model used in the vortech kit is a Centrifugal Supercharger.

[gonzo666]

so which one would be better and why.

[Iceotron]

i'm no expert but from my experience there's no definite answer to which is better. Both have pro's and con's. The main pro's for both are:

super - provides constant hp boost, meaning 75 hp to the wheels is there no matter how fast or slow you are going.

turbo - generally provide more max hp but suffer from lag and hp build up. Meaning at say 2500 rpm's it provides 55 more hp over stock but at 4000 rpm it provides 95 hp over stock.


Also keep in mind that a smaller turbo can provide hp almost as quickly as a super charger and have a little more top end, OR a larger turbo will have more "lag" but MUCH higher top end hp output. Lastly, i'm not positive, but I believe a supercharger provides more torque over a turbo of equal output.

[Slikrthnu]

Speaking of Turbo's and Superchargers, has no one bored out their cylinders, and sleeved them? No one is really running serious boost. I know on my buddy's Eclipse he's running at 16 PSI and Running over 300something HP (good for mid to low 12's). Just wondering.

[DemonSVT]

Originally posted by: Iceotron
1. super - provides constant hp boost, meaning 75 hp to the wheels is there no matter how fast or slow you are going.

2. turbo - generally provide more max hp but suffer from lag and hp build up. Meaning at say 2500 rpm's it provides 55 more hp over stock but at 4000 rpm it provides 95 hp over stock.

3. Also keep in mind that a smaller turbo can provide hp almost as quickly as a super charger and have a little more top end, OR a larger turbo will have more "lag" but MUCH higher top end hp output. Lastly, i'm not positive, but I believe a supercharger provides more torque over a turbo of equal output.
1. Not true.
A roots or screw style S/C will develop boost quickly as the rpm's rise.
However...
A centrifugal supercharger (I.E. Vortech) will slowly develop boost as the rpms rise quickly.

A S/C's boost is always rpm dependant!

2. Turbo's will beat a S/C in power output across the board. They just are much more efficient and their boost is Not RPM dependant.
Turbo lag is really a thing of the past unless you are running a monster size turbo at high boost on a very low compression engine.

A Turbo's main con is they add a tremendous amount of heat to the intake charge. Running a turbo without an intercooler is not only dangerous but IMO downright stupid!

3. A turbo will provide power MUCH sooner than a centrifugal supercharger and depending on the size and spool time just as fast as a roots style.
A supercharger in NO WAY produces more torque than a turbo. A roots comes close to matching a turbo, but a centrifugal is not even remotely close!

[gonzo666]

so basically don't waste money ont the Vortech Supercharger and save for the Street Flight turbo for better results in hp and torque

[Faboo]

Originally posted by: gonzo666
so basically don't waste money ont the Vortech Supercharger and save for the Street Flight turbo for better results in hp and torquein general...

[pgtatx]

No that is completely wrong...

depending on your type of driving, goals, expertise, monetary flow, etc etc etc...will decide if a supercharger or turbo setup is for you.

If you have little money, then neither is for you. If you have minor expertise in cars, and have enough money to buy a SC kit, and other things to run safely and install it all (if you can't), then a SC is for you.

A SC will be preferred for those who decide they want more power, but not crazy amounts and might be a daily driver for them. No need to drop the extra $2000 on the turbo kit and then even more on install and tuning if you never utilize the turbo.

I'm not much of a racer these days, and a SC would be perfect for me. I can do the install in a weekend in my garage, get it tuned nice and easily, and be done with money to spare, and still have all the power I need.

Too many people are looking for the wrong thing when it comes to modding a car.

[gonzo666]

Now i want something that will pull me back to my seat i know both can do that but what is also more gas efficient and easier to maintain. With the SC being centrifugal would i need an intercooler or not. Also will it need a bigger exhaust like a turbo would or will any size matter.

[tomXR]

i just talked to atomic....he runs a 14.4 et on 9.5 psi. vortech has always made a very reliable s/c. i would also say they are much easier to install and to maintain. both turbos and s/c's are capable of maintaining reasonable mpg...if u can resist playing with your new power supply...unlikely.

Turbo lag is really a thing of the past unless you are running a monster size turbo at high boost on a very low compression engine.
I hear this from you often. Not true. If there is no lag...there is no turbo. smaller turbos will have a lower boost threshold, less lag, and less torque increase. Turbo lag will never be a thing of the past as long as turbos are exhaust gas driven. whether its a half second or 3 seconds--when u apply full throttle, the time it takes for the exhaust velocity to increase to a point of spinning the turbine enough to produce noticable boost --is your turbo lag

[wavrdr]

I run high 13's at 103 on 5psi....with the Street Flight kit. The turbo for our cars, makes more hp/tq throughout the entire rpm range in comparison to the only supercharger avaialbe for our cars(Centrifugal), so no need to compare the turbo to a roots system. If you want reliable daily driven power then go with the turbo. Yes it costs more, but you're getting a fully intercooled system with much nicer components...did I mention the intercooler?

As far as installation difficulty...I've read the Vortech install manual and have to say it looks much more diffcult than installing the turbo. You are required to relocate things such as the ac condensor, shim the fans shroud IIRC, not to mention the battery(both kits require batt. reloc.). The turbo is a full bolt-on kit, comes with a fully tuned chip, and makes a ton more "overall" power.....

[95Mike]

The Vortech installation is no biggie as long as you have the tools. There are just about 10 or so one to two hour projects to complete. I did it in one and a half days with my dad and brother in law. I personally think the turbo would be harder just for the fact that you have to yank off the exhaust manifolds. Just replacing the o2 sensor in the rear one was a b*tch let alone taking out the rusty-ass bolts.

As far as which to get, it all depends. If you are buying new, then go for the turbo. I would only choose the Vortech if you buy it used (from someone reputable) like I did. The turbo gives you more torque, new headers and an intercooler. In the summertime the vortech power is still better than stock, but it is not too impressive. On a cool night or in the winter it does screem though. I would say get the intercooler for the vortech, but even then if you're buying new that would put you right around the price of a turbo anyway. For the price I got on mine I couldn't be happier.

[PuckPuck]

Originally posted by: tomXR
i just talked to atomic....he runs a 14.4 et on 9.5 psi. vortech has always made a very reliable s/c. i would also say they are much easier to install and to maintain. both turbos and s/c's are capable of maintaining reasonable mpg...if u can resist playing with your new power supply...unlikely.

Turbo lag is really a thing of the past unless you are running a monster size turbo at high boost on a very low compression engine.
I hear this from you often. Not true. If there is no lag...there is no turbo. smaller turbos will have a lower boost threshold, less lag, and less torque increase. Turbo lag will never be a thing of the past as long as turbos are exhaust gas driven. whether its a half second or 3 seconds--when u apply full throttle, the time it takes for the exhaust velocity to increase to a point of spinning the turbine enough to produce noticable boost --is your turbo lag


true turbos will always have lag... but nowadays that lag is down to less than a 1/10th of a second... so it will still produce power quicker than a s/c

[Knibbs]

from what i know and understand is that there really isnt a better one. there is only a better choice for your needs/wants. the way i look at it is like this.. i want some more power and torque( i will admit that im a torque junkie) and with out going into great detail i am going to be choosing the s/c for a few reasons.. granted street flgiht might have a great turbo kit. having seen it first hand ., i just didnt like the look of the kit as welll as the price. for almost 2 grand less i can get just about as much hps/ftlbs . so far its pointing me in the s/c direction. then i look at vortech who have been in the game for many many years and have done alot for the ford mustangs and have a pretty good customer service dept.( have made a bunch of calls and asked alot of them and they were still very informative and helpful). but to cut to the chase. im going to the vortech s/c for a safer investment, better looking system , that wont completly put me into permenate debt. and has been proven and has been out for a while.. but to reiterate the fact that its pretty much all part of your personal choice . i have a 95 gst eclipse turbo and i love it as well . but really i like the FI feeling so i dont really have a loyalty to turbo. or s/c

[DanN]

Personally I think an Eaton/Roots type S/C would be excellent for Duratec. Keep boost around say 5 psi and I think it could give a broad tourque curve with maybe 220-240 FWHP on a mildly modded SVT with reasonable non-intercooled IATs..nice and simple without special headers/intercoolers etc. This is about as far as I would want with stock internals and 10:1 CR and you will be less likely to shread trannys/half shafts if you are careful and have a Quaife. The turbo is great but its a big expensive project and without alot of other driveline/chassis/suspension upgrades to allow putting the power down I bet it will not be much faster. I like what I have read about the kit that Jagular is working on..crank driven (no jackshaft), and attached to a modded 3L UIM for install simplicity for about 3K..Hope it works out...

[Raben]

Just from a general point of view, it would depend on what you want to get out of it. I've always considered Superchargers = daily driven and limited strip use. . .and turbos for both daily driven and limited strip to all out racing.

Not sure the power ratings on cougars as I have been out of it for so long, but on the LS1's I can get a turbo kit that's able to dish out up to 1,000hp. It all depends on what you want to do with your car. And how much money you have because it's not all about the turbo alone, forged internals, rebuild tranny, on a rear wheel driven car, the rear end will need work, etc etc. The higher HP/TQ rateing you want, the more $$ you are going to need to fix the weak parts of the car.



I'm going for a CAS twin turbo setup with both set to 3psi to start with. The stock LS1 can take up to 8psi, roughly 450rwhp but anything above that then I'll need to work the tranny, upgrade to a 12 bolt rear end and forged pistons, and a stronger crank shaft + drive shaft.


My goal is to eventually hit 800rwhp but I have a LONG way to go. Right now I'm satisified with my 316hp 348lbs of torque that's nearly constantly on the wheels under WOT due to my stall and tuning.

Once my car is paid for (cough cough, 4 1/2 more years) then I'll really tear this car apart hehe.

Good luck to everyone that is going boosted/blown.

[MetalJim]

Originally posted by: DanN
Personally I think an Eaton/Roots type S/C would be excellent for Duratec. Keep boost around say 5 psi..

One problem with a S/C is that once you decide on a boost level you're pretty much locked in - before you even install it. With a turbo, you can boost to your hearts content. Hit detonation - pull it back a smidge.

[warmonger]

The turbo kills the vortech S/C hands down. The only thing they have in common is peak numbers.
The centrifugal driven supercharger is not going to help produce low-rpm torque if you or anyone is a torque junkie. It is progressive with max boost arriving late in the power band. This kind of S/C is ideal for a motor that already produces big torque at low rpm at the expense of high rpm torque.

Our motors are the opposite.

The vortech on a 2.5L produces maybe 200-210 Ft-lbs or torque and only around 5000 rpm. The turbo makes anywhere from 225-275 ft-lbs of torque depending on boost level and it does it from as little as 3000 rpm to 6000 rpm.
Flat torque equals big power numbers and and massive thrust.

Sorry but the vortech kit is only halfway there for more than half the money.

[nadthomas]

Dude Gonzo, your using a pic of my car for your icon. I'm honored I guess, but don't go starting any trouble around here, I don't want my photo to get a bad rep.


Thanks,
Dan

[Chamuko]

damn metal jim i see you here once again.

Like mentioned before, turbo technology has advanced a lot since the 80's. Just that for cost reasons manufacturers dont sish out for the best out there. BB turbos = faster spool, ceramic blades = faster spool up, VATs systems ( variable blades on the compressur, yess this is developed already ) = fast spool and High top end....Its just a matter of how much you want to dish out.

Just becuse they include a turbo with the system doesnt mean you can opt to mess around with other sizes...let the money flow and the boost thirst begin...bwuahahahaa,.....sorry ive said too much.