Working on a twin screw supercharger kit.

[Jagular]

Hey guys and gals, I've been busy again. I am working with Whipplecharger to make a twin screw supercharger for the cougars. This kit is based on the 1.6L head unit with an 8 rib belt. This kit is an easy bolt on. Easier than most modifications that you will come across. It has its own intake manifold and throttle body. The kit will come with 42lb injectors a 90mm MAF sensor, an accufab mustang cobra throttle body and all the nessisary hardware. The kit will be $3100.00, will not require any relocation or anything other than what comes with the kit. I'd have to say this will be the biggest bang for the buck kti available. Full boost of 5-6 psi will be reached at 2000-2200 RPM. Can you say torque monster?

Thanks for readin'
T.J.

[Gary]

interesting...

[ChrisHightower]

I have thought abou that solution a long time ago. A big question comes up:

What to do about the top engine mount and P/S pump.

I have thought about relocating the P/S pump to the side, and fabbing a "hollow" engine mount to make way for the S/C driveshaft.
You DON'T want to drive it off the water pump pulley. That would put massive amounts of stress on the hydraulic tensioner for the cam chain. Not to mention put undue twisting stress on the cam.

Running a secondary shaft across the front like the old Paxton setup would work, but that's too much work and you have much more parasitic losses.

Good luck man!!!

[DanN]

Is this for the Duratec or Zetec...

[nadthomas]

Is this the same kit that you were originally going to use a procharger with, or is this something completely different. Can you add an intercooler for this, and would it still be simply to install. That was one of the biggest things that interested me in the other kit you were working on. I don't want to have to worry about heat issues, or let the car idle so it can cool down afterwards. I mean if i'm running late to work and I am driving like a bat out of hell'o nurse' I'm not going to have time to let the thing idle. And as you can tell from my last statement my cougar is a daily driver as I'm sure most of them are, so I need something reliable.

And you forgot to mention a bigger... will this work with an ATX.

I imagine at 5-6psi the stock atx tranny should hold up to that, right? Or how about a special the SC and your ATX tranny upgrade at a discounted price :)

You would have more ATX cougars in your shop then you could count if you price it right, assuming everything is as good as you are promoting. :)

[FastCougar]

NECO Proverb: Build it, test it extensively, provide dyno sheets and detailed information and pictures and they will come. Some will buy and some will contemplate a second job.

NECO Proverb: Make claims and be prepaired to get question upon question thrown your way.

Good Luck!

[pgtatx]

Go check out Kenne Bells' SC design for the 3L Escape...and work with that.

I like kenne Bell's setups...too bad the escape has enough difference in the engine bay, that the kit will not work on the cougar.

[PuckPuck]

intake mounted s/c usually don't have an intercooler unless it's air-water, however given the little amount of hood clearnace we have i highly doubt you'll fit an intercooler under the s/c....

i am interested in this idea, but like HighTower mentions... you have a motor mount and P/S pump right there that will need to be taken care of...

[CougarBalla2k5]

I called Procharger and they said the Universal kit would work on the ATX Cougar. :) Jagular, feel free to test out that S/C on my coog :)

[PuckPuck]

just about any s/c will work.. the problem is running the piping, making the brackets, managing the fuel, etc.....

[TheGreatOne]

I would venture to say there's no way in hell it would work off the waterpump pulley.

What about hood clearance on this kit?


Originally posted by: ChrisHightower
I have thought abou that solution a long time ago. A big question comes up:

What to do about the top engine mount and P/S pump.

I have thought about relocating the P/S pump to the side, and fabbing a "hollow" engine mount to make way for the S/C driveshaft.
You DON'T want to drive it off the water pump pulley. That would put massive amounts of stress on the hydraulic tensioner for the cam chain. Not to mention put undue twisting stress on the cam.

Running a secondary shaft across the front like the old Paxton setup would work, but that's too much work and you have much more parasitic losses.

Good luck man!!!

[CougarBalla2k5]

Originally posted by: PuckPuck
just about any s/c will work.. the problem is running the piping, making the brackets, managing the fuel, etc.....

The Procharger kit comes with the bracket, right or left.

[Dustyn]

Originally posted by: Jagular
Hey guys and gals, I've been busy again. I am working with Whipplecharger to make a twin screw supercharger for the cougars. This kit is based on the 1.6L head unit with an 8 rib belt. This kit is an easy bolt on. Easier than most modifications that you will come across. It has its own intake manifold and throttle body. The kit will come with 42lb injectors a 90mm MAF sensor, an accufab mustang cobra throttle body and all the nessisary hardware. The kit will be $3100.00, will not require any relocation or anything other than what comes with the kit. I'd have to say this will be the biggest bang for the buck kti available. Full boost of 5-6 psi will be reached at 2000-2200 RPM. Can you say torque monster?

Thanks for readin'
T.J.
Can we see some pice from this project or your ATI project or how about your Turbo project?

[Jagular]

I don't have any pics of the ATI project yet. The bracketry is at ATI along with the S/C. The turbo project is coming along. The exhaust housing will be here tomorrow for the turbo and I will start building the headers as soon as I get the header flanges, they will be here in a few days as well. I will give you some pictures of the roots blower, the turbo and the water to air intercooler asap. Thanks for the intrest. By the way, If someone wants to help by donating a car to be test fit with a piece that would be greatly apriciated, as of now I have one car and I don't think that I can get a turbo, roots blower, and a centrifical blower all on the same car. I just don't think that there's enough room under the hood. The roots blower kit will resemble the kenne bell unit, no intercooler, but my kit uses a 1.6L head unit instead of a 1.5L unit. I have pulleys and brakets for the ATI unit but I really need someone to buy one of these kits from me and I can finish it within a few days. It's just too hard to try to keep my fiance's car up and running every day for her to drive and keep working on parts. Thanks for the intrest guys.

T.J.

[Kinger]

You have too damn many kits going! Pick one, put the R&D in it and go, they all seem like solid designs, forget the turbo as that is already available with the best customer service you could ever get. I like the idea of removing the restrictive manifold and replacing with a SC.

[PuckPuck]

Originally posted by: Kinger
You have too damn many kits going! Pick one, put the R&D in it and go, they all seem like solid designs, forget the turbo as that is already available with the best customer service you could ever get. I like the idea of removing the restrictive manifold and replacing with a SC.

ditto.... go with the roots blower :)... i'll donate my car :)

[Jagular]

The research is already done. I'm in the development stage of all the kits. The reason I'm doing the turbo kit is that I feel in my opinion that it's not up to par. It also won't fit an ATX. The turbo they put in the kit is just too small. Thats the kit that's available in the 2.0L kit that I sell. I already have the turbo and the intercooler. I have all the header tubing and some of the flanges. I'm waiting on the header flanges and I will start building headers. The roots blower kit will be along shortly. I have the lower pulley coming and It will be here next week early. The ATI kit is well in the works too. I can handle doing all of the kits. I haven't had anyone busting my doors to get anyone of these kits yet so I'm not too worried. I'm getting them done as I can. If someone really wants one of the spacific kits, then I will concentrate on that spacific kit for them and get it produced. Then that kit will be available. On to the next kit and so on. I have more projects going then just cougar stuff as well. As of now we are putting a 3.3L twin screw blower on a Lightning engine that we built to the hills, then we're putting the engine in a ranger pickup. We finished up a 4x4 Lightning truck conversion. I just put aluminum heads and intake on a 78 camaro, saturday I'm putting an exhaust system, a clutch, a throttle body system, intake assembley, and a lower blower pulley on a 2003 cobra. On top of all that we are trying to get our race car back together and running for late June early July.

[CougarBalla2k5]

So which kit(s) will fit the ATX?

[naynay]

[quote]
Originally posted by: Jagular
The turbo they put in the kit is just too small.



You better go check your flow charts a little closer. Thats about as big as you want to go. Besides aren't you the one that said your kits come with 27lbs injectors in your kits, which is way to small even for my setup. Of course now that i just checked you changed it from 27lbs to 42lbs......hmmmm. If you go to a larger Turbo you will detonate motors, or have huge turbo lag.
If you have kits for the 2.0L where are the dyno sheets?
You say you are making kits for our car.....whos Cougar are you using for design?

don't get me wrong im enjoying hearing about these new s/c kits but im just curious as to how your designing them. And good luck......before anyone will show you their $$ they want dyno sheets and video proof etc.... Neco members are the toughest i've seen out there!

Oh...im still interested in the Pistons and Rods. Just waiting for the ok to proceed!! Which brand are you selling?

Thanks, Nathan

[sonza68]

Originally posted by: naynay
You say you are making kits for our car.....whos Cougar are you using for design?

His fiance has a Cougar.

Unfortuantly all of these kits and ATX toys are becoming available when I'm short on cash.:banghead: I think I need to sell a kidney or something.

[overfiend]

uhm arnt most people using the streetflight kit using 19lb injectors?

[Jagular]

Detonation is only an ignition and fuel problem. If you keep the CFM and boost at a reasonable level and retard the timing and put something like an MSD dis-4 box on it there will be no problem. I've always sayed that 42lb injectors will be included in the kit. This is a custom turbo designed for the 2.5L engines the 3.0L engines will come with a little different turbo because of displacement. these aren't off the shelf turbos. every turbo is built for a spacific car and application. dyno sheets to come very very soon. Thanks for the questions. I'd be happy to answer any more that you might have. Oh, the rods are eagle and the pistons are BRC custom. I also can get you ARP main studs and head studs and also total seal rings. I have other parts too. I also have a 2.5L engine that I have just in my garage to mock some things on. It's easier to build the headers out of the car than it is in the car thats for sure.

[Kinger]

Originally posted by: Jagular
Detonation is only an ignition and fuel problem. If you keep the CFM and boost at a reasonable level and retard the timing and put something like an MSD dis-4 box on it there will be no problem. I've always sayed that 42lb injectors will be included in the kit. This is a custom turbo designed for the 2.5L engines the 3.0L engines will come with a little different turbo because of displacement. these aren't off the shelf turbos. every turbo is built for a spacific car and application. dyno sheets to come very very soon. Thanks for the questions. I'd be happy to answer any more that you might have. Oh, the rods are eagle and the pistons are BRC custom. I also can get you ARP main studs and head studs and also total seal rings. I have other parts too. I also have a 2.5L engine that I have just in my garage to mock some things on. It's easier to build the headers out of the car than it is in the car thats for sure.

How do you make a 2.5 with 42# injectors idle right? What happens when the EEC sends a .8ms pulswidth and the injector can only go down to 2.5 ms? How are you compensating in the EEC?

[naynay]

Originally posted by: Jagular
Detonation is only an ignition and fuel problem. If you keep the CFM and boost at a reasonable level and retard the timing and put something like an MSD dis-4 box on it there will be no problem. I've always sayed that 42lb injectors will be included in the kit. This is a custom turbo designed for the 2.5L engines the 3.0L engines will come with a little different turbo because of displacement. these aren't off the shelf turbos. every turbo is built for a spacific car and application. dyno sheets to come very very soon. Thanks for the questions. I'd be happy to answer any more that you might have. Oh, the rods are eagle and the pistons are BRC custom. I also can get you ARP main studs and head studs and also total seal rings. I have other parts too. I also have a 2.5L engine that I have just in my garage to mock some things on. It's easier to build the headers out of the car than it is in the car thats for sure.


Im sorry man....i qouted what SF kit had (injector size)...oops!! Hey we agree with the injector size!! Kinger if you do the math and have the correct chip made 42lbs is what it calls for. Actually it calls for 41.899 something.

Hey Jagular....im buying the Apexi boost controller, what are your thoughts on that type of controller? I'd ask Carson but that man is so damn swamped it's insane!! Thanks!

[naynay]

Originally posted by: overfiend
uhm arnt most people using the streetflight kit using 19lb injectors?

Yes and you wonder why James' car blew up??

:banghead:

[Jagular]

You tune the car with a chip and a mass air meter. You can make any injector idle. my fathers race car has 160 lb/hr injectors and it idles at 1200-1500 it purrs like a kitten. Its all in the tune.

[Kinger]

Originally posted by: Jagular
You tune the car with a chip and a mass air meter. You can make any injector idle. my fathers race car has 160 lb/hr injectors and it idles at 1200-1500 it purrs like a kitten. Its all in the tune.

So your going to raise the idle speed for the kit to work? Why doesn't Ford use one size injector in all cars then? They could source them cheaper and it would be more consistant. Our duratec's come with 16,17,and 19# injectors why would they do that when they could just use 1 size for all its cars?

[Jagular]

You got me? I have no clue. Personally I've never even heard of 16, or 17 lb/hr injectors. I know of 14, 19, 24, 30, 36, 42, 50, 64, 73, 83, 96, and 160. Those are the normal numbers i believe. But whatever ford does is up to them.

[Kinger]

The 16's came in the early 2.5L contours, the 17's in all cougars, the 19's in the contour SVT.

I guess what I'm saying is that there has to be limit, if the mechanical limitations of a injector limit pulsewidth then you have to lower fuel pressure or increase CFM (raise idle point). I have a 3L with 42# injectors, calibrated MAF, and a dyno tuned chip and it won't idle and I have gone through everything only to conclude I must be suffering from fuel drop out. Therefore I'm switching to everything calibrated to 30# to see if it idles then.

Also a good man on CEG used his Greddy E-manage to identify that the EEC was giving his 36#'ers a .8ms pulsewidth (EEC can go to 0) and he found that his injectors were limited to 2.5ms. Swapping to 24's it immediatly idled all night with out instance.

Try as you might 42's won't work in your 2.5....but I'll have set for sale soon if you want to try ;)

[naynay]

The trick is the pcm letting you use 42lbs injectors. Once you have reached a certain lb the pcm goes crazy. The e-manage i don't think will help. And unfortunately Carson will NOT give out the info on how to fix that little problem. And no your normal chip will not work. I will try my damndest to get that info from him.....but so far he hasn't come off that trick. He had to figure out how to on the new Foci, so yes he has gotten them to work.

[Jagular]

If you have someone who has figured out the encripted code out for the cougars you can do anything that you want within the ECU. It's just like having a F.A.S.T. system only you have to burn the program in. Injectors will go to whatever pulse width that you want. They are just mechanical pieces with bigger orfices or smaller orfices. The ECU and the MAF sensor dictates what the injectors are doing. I'm sure with the right chip you could get a cougar to idle with 160lb/hr injectors.

[naynay]

Correct:bowdown:



Thats pretty much what Carson told me.....but left out the good stuff.

[ChrisHightower]

Originally posted by: Jagular
I'm sure with the right chip you could get a cougar to idle with 160lb/hr injectors.

Is the spray pattern of a 160# injector the same as a 19# injector at 5PSI?

Hint: That's why there are different fuel injectors.

The closer you get to the injector's max PSI, the better the spray pattern is going to be.

[exigent]

As I stand here now... this dude will never sell one thing.

I could post about 10,000 words right now tearing everything he has said to shreds.

He sounds to me like he knows just enough to be dangerous and no where near enough to design somthing like hes talking about... Im siting this one out.... like i said if i say anything more its going to be one hell of a rant.



It took streetflight months to do the kit... and now you pop up with 30 diffrent things includeing 3 forced induction set ups like you build them at night in the garage. Some here are naive and you will probably get them on all this..... I have yet to understand your motivation though.


By the way... injectors are ELECTROMECHANICLE.... threre most certainly is a minimum theoretical pulse width just as surely as there is a maximum pulse width. MOREOVER... detonation is not simply spark and fuel.... there are about 50 other considerations. Heres a good one for you mr chip with maf tunning for boost.... what happens when you hit the rev limiter? Dont bother telling me its taken out... unless you cut open your eec and modified HARDWARE you still have a fuel cut rev limiter. Even IF you raised it above 7500(which isnt posible without hardware changes to my knowlege) what happens when you hit that?

[overfiend]

heres my thing...everyone seems to be second guessing everyone but no one seems to be concrete. and with street flights turbo kit...i've really only seen three people with the kit post about it. One being craig whos had nothing but good experiences as far as we know, but as much as he drives it we know it is not his daily driver (for the most part). then theres the fellow who ran the 13.8 on 6 psi in his contour. on the way to the track he said he noticed at least symptoms of mild detonation, and what happend to the kit being tuned for 10 psi all the time? i know when you're at the track you drive it as hard as possible, so whats to say if i decide to pass a semi on the highway with 10psi i wont detonate? and the third is james' car...and well we know what happend there. and they also did not take into consideration why not build it to fit both transmissions? i know from talking to jagular that his initial design is fitted so it will work with the atx, as cramped as the tubing maybe. and i dont want to sound like i'm being down on street flight but from the little i know (even if i had an mtx) i wouldnt mind looking at other options. i know i'm a novice compared to you a lot of you (if not most)...but i'm just trying to throw a little perspective...questioning is cool, this should be all about learning and helping, being smarmy and well...an ass isnt going to get anything done for anyone.

p.s. thread jackin sucks

[Jagular]

You can say what you want about me. I don't care, I actually like constuctive criticism. It gives me something to work for and work from. I have one for you though. If I can design and build a twin turbo kit for a Buick gran-national that makes over 1500 hp, a twin turbo big block ford that makes over 2000hp a single turbo small block ford that makes over 1900 hp and a replacement twin screw supercharged lightning engine that makes over 800 hp and not to mention a million other different naturally aspirated and forced indution engines does that qualify me to build a few things for these cougars that will probably never see 900hp? I don't know? I tune with F.A.S.T. fuel injection often. One of the cars I tune has the old version of F.A.S.T. called Speed-Pro. I have tuned about 4 or 5 Lightning trucks into the 12.5 to 12.80 range in the quarter at over 4500lbs. I'm also currently working on a 2003 Cobra. I just work out of my garage though. It's only about 3200 square feet of space though. I don't know too many people with a lift in thier garage or a 5 foot metal lathe or a 250 amp TIG welder or 2 MIG welders, but It's just a garage anyways.

[naynay]

[
Heres a good one for you mr chip with maf tunning for boost.... what happens when you hit the rev limiter? don't bother telling me its taken out... unless you cut open your eec and modified HARDWARE you still have a fuel cut rev limiter. Even IF you raised it above 7500(which isn't possible without hardware changes to my knowlege) what happens when you hit that?[/quote]



This may not be towards me but i'll stick my little neck out there anyways. This has been discussed before......MSD Dis systems come with the capability to shut down your ignition before your fuel cutoff!! The system actually shuts down each cylinder as it reaches combustion. These systems (which i have) are really great to have, im just confused on why big motor guys(like yourself) don't know or use these systems. I don't claim to know everything man so don't tear into me, im just quoting what i've been told and actually read about MSD DIS systems.

[PuckPuck]

how does an integra pushing 500hp idle... heck how does any b16 or b18 engine producing over 500hp idle... or what about a wrx pushing that much hp? they all run 800-1000cc injectors... in laymen terms that's equivalent to 78-98lb injectors

it's all in the computer management, and if you don't use the standard eec to control it you are golden... he has said more than once he doesn't plan on using the eec to tune it...

i swear most of the people on this board are one minded, think that nothing is possible unless they dream it up, yet using that mentality we would never EVER see a street car break 12s in the 1/4 mile....

2 years ago people said we would never get a vortech unit to run on a returnless system.... kinger did it using simple techinques.... now thoses same people say you will never idle with 42lb injectors.... maybe theses people need to expand their tuning options a little more...

[Kinger]

Originally posted by: PuckPuck
how does an integra pushing 500hp idle... heck how does any b16 or b18 engine producing over 500hp idle... or what about a wrx pushing that much hp? they all run 800-1000cc injectors... in laymen terms that's equivalent to 78-98lb injectors

it's all in the computer management, and if you don't use the standard eec to control it you are golden... he has said more than once he doesn't plan on using the eec to tune it...

i swear most of the people on this board are one minded, think that nothing is possible unless they dream it up, yet using that mentality we would never EVER see a street car break 12s in the 1/4 mile....

2 years ago people said we would never get a vortech unit to run on a returnless system.... kinger did it using simple techinques.... now thoses same people say you will never idle with 42lb injectors.... maybe theses people need to expand their tuning options a little more...

Good points, but my car doesn't idle with 42's and I only talk out of experience with lots of money invested not pipe dreams. My tune has been deemed correct by TWO seperate sources, I'm on my 2nd MAF looking at a third, and the only thing I can deduct so far is my injectors are too big or I have a MAF turbulance issue.

If someone can make it idle with them then get your azzes over to my garage!

[naynay]

Man you just nailed it on the head Kinger....Maf turbulance will NEVER let your car idle correctly. Doesnt matter what injector size you have. The only reason why i know that is because i had that problem for awhile, its very irratating.


You may want to call Pro-M about that turbulance. They will give you a few suggestions on how to find out if that really is your problem. Really its simple, put the straight pipe (ram air setup) back on on check to see if that corrects the problem. It corrected mine. Even though i did NOT want that ram air setup on my car, but Pro-M can and will reprogram your Maf.

[PuckPuck]

kinger - have you considered trying to run the MAF air straigtening screen found on SVT 'tours

essentially from what i understand it's just a simple screen that attaches to the front of the MAF... it helps straigthen out the air at a small cost of CFM....

[Jagular]

You are right that there is a minimum pulse width for a given injector. But using a high impedence injector such as a 42lb/hr there will be no problem getting the thing to idle like a stocker. I've done plenty of buick V6's with clear up to 83lb/hr with the dinosaur computer that they have and tehy idle perfect all day. The pulse width on the 42's in our cars will probably be around 2.0-2.18. That seems to be where they like it. It will idle about 800-1000 rpm.

[Kinger]

Originally posted by: PuckPuck
kinger - have you considered trying to run the MAF air straigtening screen found on SVT 'tours

essentially from what i understand it's just a simple screen that attaches to the front of the MAF... it helps straigthen out the air at a small cost of CFM....

That's my plan for the weekend is to play with a screen. I got one from Pro-M but it doesn't fit, so its modify time again. I tried extending the filter 12" from the MAF and letting it hang out over the fender just as a test and it did nothing.

Back to my point if the EEC is sending a 2ms pusle width to my Lucas Delphi injectors that have a claimed lower limit of 3.5ms pulsewidth there is no way it can idle correctly and will always be rich with the extra 1.5ms time frame of fuel going in, after time it loads up until the EEC shuts the injector completly off causing a stumble then it opens the injectors again and regains idle again for a few minutes before starting over again. That is what is happening to mine, and my limited knowledge of the subject gives that lame hypothesis I just typed.

Warmonger got his 36#'ers to idle perfectly with a MAF swap so maybe it can all work that way on mine.

[PuckPuck]

36 -> 42 lbs injectors is only a 15% difference.....

seems to me it can work.... it's amazing how when trying to tune using different options (19lb maf in warmonger's car amazingly was all he needed) you can make things work.....

next topic :)