For ATXers

[rrncousarmy]

I have read much about level10 and talked to many people in the transmission (locally and online). IF you want a decent boost in your performance off the line talk to a reputable tranny shop and have them order or modify a torque converter for you. You should first estimate how much power your engine is putting out at the wheels because this info can help them. I can get a premodified torque converter with a MUCH HIGHER STALL SPEED for about $180 around here. Then installation is what costs the most . Install could run 400-500$ or more depending on the shop. This is when you shop around. Level10 claims .7 seconds off your 1/4 mile time. All they are doing is making the torque converter have a higher stall speed. Most reputable shops can do this and do this on a regular basis. There is no need to drive your car to NJ or wherever they are when there are shops all over who can do the same work... I can hopefully have my brother in law install mine when I do my 3.0L conversion. BTW - The stock stall speed is below 1500 RPM IIRC. This is why us ATXers CANNOT LAUNCH FOR CRAP.

Thanks

Furthermore can we get some tranny experts to look into alternatives for level 10 upgrades. They obviously order the upgraded tranny components from someplace and now that I have posted the torque converter alternative I believe most of the work is done considering the biggest gain by level10 is made by upgrading the stall speed. Does anybody know if upgrading the stall speed has any effect on the way the tranny shifts from gear to gear??

[rrncousarmy]

31 Reads and not a single reply. Not seeing a whole lot of support here guys. Can somebody step up and volunteer to do some research on some other parts??

Found out a little more info pertaining to the clutches of the autos. These are links to aftermarket clutches

CEG Thread (http://www.contour.org/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=tranny&Number=283177&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=7&fpart=2&vc=1)

[CougarBalla2k5]

Guy named Jagular can do everything they do and achieve the 1 second off the 1/4 for 1500 installed.

[unisys12]

I am glad to see that some of my research is reaching others and perking some ears. I have been on a hugh learning curve with the CD4E for a long time and have had to teach myself a lot about this little puppy. I have done a ton of research and asked a bunch of, sometimes stupid, questions but feel that it is imperative to share the learning experience in front of everyone. That way we all can learn more, because you get to see the mistakes and misconceptions that I make.

Anyway! On topic here...

Here is a reply that I posted on another thread on CEG that some of you might not have read. It is about a week or so old, but still contains some stuff that might be useful. Enough to make you use Google a little more anyway...:)

...One of the points that was made in our conversation was, the lack of modifications available for the CD4E. Sure you can go spend $3000 dollars on a Level 10, but that is just above the point of "out of reach" for most of us. And I cannot think of a single person that is going to be changing there tranny over to a Level 10 just because they want to. It really is overkill in a since, but...

Since I am putting my car in the shop, next monday, I have been spending most of my time this weekend doing a lot of further research on aftermarket high performance products for the CD4E and they are just plain hard to find. Now! I was told, by the shop that will be doing my overhaul, that there are Kevlar composite clutches available from Raybestos. I look them up and yeah they are there, but in the catalog (dated 9/2002), they are not listed for the CD4E. They also have some new clutches and plates called, Eclipse that sound awesome!! About the only thing available for the CD4E is "High Energy" material clutch and plate assays.

Finding this, I felt discouraged beyond belief, because I know that Level 10 has to use some sort of Kevlar base clutch material. But where do they get it from? What kind of clutch is it?

The same goes for bands also. I did find that you have to be VERY CAREFUL when purchasing bands. Some are OEM, some are OEM Relined... You really have to read the fine print. There are some brands that do offer a Kevlar bands and relined bands with Kevlar, but again... not for the CD4E. There is however a High Energy material band that is available for the SUV model CD4E's for model years 2001-up. Can it be used in our earlier models? I have not been able to find out as of yet.

hydraulically speaking, there are a few things. Like the Trans Go CD4Ejr kit. This is not a performance package, but an update package that should be installed in all rebuilt units. It is only like $40, so what the heck. Then there is Sonnax valves for the valve body. These are not high performance, in the since that we normally think, but I really think they are. They have really added a ton of control to the hydraulic system on these units, which is the weakest link in the CD4E. As for upping line pressure for firmer shifts (which is normally done through the installation of a valve body kit that consists of different plates and gaskets, pistons and valves), get a chip. From what I have found so far, that is the only way. This also allows you control over shift points and such. And if you decide to up your line pressure, you better at least have the Trans Go kit in there. Being the weakest link, you push it too hard and it will fail. There is also the option of going with a high stall convertor.

Driveline, nothing. Honestly there is really no need for it. If they can push 350 S/C'ed horses through a stock 2001 CD4E and there have need very few changes in the driveline.... well you get the picture. Actually, I think the 2001 models do have a little wider drive chain. I will have to look back into that one.

If I have missed anything or someone has more info or if I am wrong/off base about something, please let me know. Like I said earlier, most of this information was gathered just this weekend.

I put my car in the shop this morning and will be sitting down with the shop tomorrow sometime to discuss all the different options and avenues I have to go with. We will also be talking prices, so I will have some of that info as well. One thing that I can add to this... After finding the catalog yesterday, that someone posted in another thread here, there is a Kevlar composite band available for the CD4E!! Woo Hoo! Found one more.... Also the High Energy material clutches are the Kevlar composites. Found that out since posting this. One the Direct & Coast clutches are avaliable in the this material, but I am willing to take whatever I can get!!

Hope everyone continues to learn from my experiences, wrong and right!

[rrncousarmy]

Thank you for reposting unisys12. I believe I talked to Jaguar before and he told me a custom torque converter would run me about 5-600. This is pretty much the same as level10 and theirs includes and install. Maybe his did too. Doesn't seem like too much of a deal. Level10 IIRC wants a little over 2 grand to do all of the work with a new tranny installed. I would rather pay them the extra 5-600 if I went that route. I would rather pay them based on their reputation alone.... I know a few people have had problems, but no company is perfect. The lesson to the story is 1500 for a name I have never heard of or 2200 for a top notch race proven company?? I pick the later. My brother in law is just an ASE certified mechanic who has done A LITTLE odd jobs here and there and HE can install a torque converter for me. I would much rather pay him $100 and help him than pay an unknown company $450 labor to install a $150 part. And yes, you can find them this cheap. Go to MOST reputable tranny shops and they can order one on the spot with a new stall speed. If you don't mind spending $1500 go right ahead. Also does that include a BRAND NEW tranny with mods?? OR a prebeaten on tranny that is rebuilt.

[unisys12]

It is "prebeaten". LOL! They will provide me a 98 core (long story!!) and they will rebuild that one. Since I am replacing everything on the inside and TSS, as long as the pump and driveline is in good shape I should have no problems. Of course the driveline should be fine, but if not, it will not add a whole lot to get it back into shape. Actually they told me that they will not use it if they have to start replacing driveline parts.

I am going to stay away from the higher stall convertor for now, unless they can quote me one in that price range. 5-600 is the range that I have been quoted also, so.... I will find out tomorrow I hope.

I can understand your point about paying more based on their reputation. I know a lot of guys that feel that way. Two problems with me, I can't afford it and I need a new tranny ASAP.

From all this, I feel very comfortable with the shop that is going to be servicing my tranny. Will my tranny be a Level 10 tranny? No! There are still a lot of things that I have to learn about what Level 10 actually do.

[NYCougar845]

Hey, I'm very interested in the idea of getting a new torque converter installed. Now you said you found a shop by you where you can get a "premodified" torque converter with "higher stall" speed for like $150. Now when I start calling around shops in my area what information will I need? Do I just tell them I need a replacement converter for my CD4E transmission, something with "a higher stall speed"? What stall speed am I looking for? The higher the stall speed the better? I plan on calling around tomorrow, just want to be prepared to give the information I need to. Thanks for starting this post, very cool.

[CatMan]

A new higher stall torque converter will definitely help in your 1/4 mile times. However, you're failing to address the biggest problem with the CD4E: the drivetrain loss. It's not so much that we have a weak drivetrain that can't handle power. In fact, from what I've heard, a stock CD4E tranny can handle a lot more power than just about anyone is putting out right now. But it's absurd that a stock MTX cougar/contour can dyno at 130-140 fwhp whereas a stock ATX is only around 120. That's the biggest dissapointment I have with the CD4E that Ford uses. The sloppy shifts and shift points can be pretty easily corrected with a custom burned chip. But there's no way of reducing the drivetrain loss without rebuilding the tranny itself to perform more efficiently. The only place a torque converter is going to help you is off the line with your launches. After that, it's not going to do a whole hell of a lot when you're doing a 1/4 mile run. Reducing the drivetrain loss will. I'd much rather get back that 20 or so horsepower that our tranny makes us loose ALL THE TIME than get a better launch at the very beginning of the race. And if you can get both issues taken care of, then you're that much better off. This is what Level 10 claims they can do. They do NOT get their gains by just slapping on a new torque converter. And you can NOT take a full second off your 1/4 mile with a new one. It will only really help you on your launch. Level 10 sells an entire tranny rebuild kit that helps it work more efficiently and transfer power to the wheels without so much power loss. I think you people are expecting a little too much out of this one thing, and I have a feeling you're going to be a little dissapointed if all you do is replace the torque converter.

The only real problem I can foresee with getting a higher stall torque converter (like a 3000 stall converter), is traction. If you get a 3000 stall torque converter, it'll be like having a clutch and revving the car up to 3000 rpms before dropping it. This may cause some serious traction issues at such a high rpm. So if you get a converter that stalls too high, you won't get traction. And you can't launch at lower rpms because the converter won't let out the clutch. If you get one that's too low, you won't get the best launch possible. So if you're going to replace the stock torque converter, be sure and do some research to find out what the best stall would be to avoid traction issues but still get a good launch. This wouldn't be such an issue if there was an LSD for the ATX, but that doesn't look like it's going to happen any time soon. If I had to guess, I'd say somewhere between 2500-3000 would be the best place to start.

The other thing people need to take into consideration is driveablility. A new torqe converter won't necessarily cause any issues directly that I know of, but it'll definitely change the way the car drives. The main problem you'll be running into is gas mileage. You can expect this to go down quite a bit with a higher stall converter, just because you're car will be constantly launching at a higher rpm than normal. So you'll have to go higher in the rpms to get the car moving, which means lower miles per gallon. This kind of mod really isn't for the casual modder that just wants to get a few more horsepower, a better exhaust sound, and maybe knock .1 or .2 of their 1/4 mile time. It's really more for the people that just want to make their car fast.

[CougarBalla2k5]

I just want to make my car fast. Everytime I punch the gas I am disappointed....I'm sick of it.

[unisys12]

Catman, I am really glad that you added this information about the TC. I was thinking along the same lines, which is one reason I was not so much worried about upgrading mine. I do not drag my car, so I could care less about launching. If I drive my car hard, it is in the twisties and I knew that the high stall TC would not really help me with anything here. I will stick with the the Kevlar clutches and Band, that should help with the firming up the shifts a small amount and then later this year when I get the SuperChip that should finish it off.

Between the valve body being completely reworked with the CD4Ejr kit and Sonnax valves and pistons, Kevlar clutches and band, the only thing I really have questions about, that I will bring up tomorrow when at the shop, will be about the pump. Since I have a 98, I know that I have the newest style pump, but just wondering if there is anything that I can add or have modded to help with stability of it.

[Jagular]

First off I'd like to say that I'm not just SOME SHOP or SOME GUY. I have run this reputable shop for eleven almost twelve years now. No I'm not nationally recognized, but I have many many customers with cars that I have built myself that have 5 to 10 times the power that you cougar guys are making and I've built everything in thier cars from the engine to the tranny and the chassis. It may be true that you don't know who I am, but YOU haven't called ME. Why may I ask? I don't have a clue. I'm only getting upset b/c you call all around to other companies but you haven't called me and you are talking bad about me. You have to give someone a little respect for even trying to do something most think that I am stupid for doing, (trying to build parts for the cougar). Just my thoughts.

T.J.

[PizzaSlut]

One thing to add to this thread, as I have tried the chip as well as the updated/revised TSS sensor. The little 15 dollar TSS sensor is something that everyone should upgrade/revise on their tranny first. It does make the car seem to shift a little quicker and when slamming the gas, getting cut off and letting off the gas at 35-40mph, I felt the car shift from 1st, to 2nd, 3rd and then 4th within about a half a second or so. Thus, no bang, and overall it does improve how the car drives and shifts. The chip is more of a redline junky I thought. If you're on the gas at all, it's shifting at 6250 rpms, no ifs ands or buts about it. Maybe a custom burned dyno chip would yield great results, who knows.

As a side note, I did read that 72% of the CD4E's last 150k miles or more. With the inline filter installed, that number goes up to something nuts, like 99%. I'd say whenever getting any tranny work done to get that inline filter added in as it is a 40 dollar kit that could save your tranny for a long, long time.

[unisys12]

Originally posted by: Pizza****

As a side note, I did read that 72% of the CD4E's last 150k miles or more. With the inline filter installed, that number goes up to something nuts, like 99%. I'd say whenever getting any tranny work done to get that inline filter added in as it is a 40 dollar kit that could save your tranny for a long, long time.

I would like to voice an "air of caution" when it comes to inline filters. None have actually been tested on the CD4E. The testing that was done, that I read anyway, was primarily for the Taurus family (what was it, AOD AX4N something like that anyway but not a CD4E). Since an inline filter, like the Magnafine, creates a void in the hydraulic system, pressures can drop. Although on the systems tested, this drop was within range of acceptable levels, on the CD4E when you already have problems with runaway line pressure and a weak hydraulic system overall, I would not chance it. On a newly rebuilt unit or a reman, maybe, but if got some miles on one... It is not worth the chance. As long as you change your fluid like you should, you will be fine. The Filtrek filter actually does a really good job.

If you really want to extend the life of the tranny, get an external cooler! For the money, it cannot be beat. Combine that with a good Syn based fluid and you have gold on your hands as far as I am concerned.

That is just my two cents anyway.

[rrncousarmy]

"I believe I talked to Jaguar before and he told me a custom torque converter would run me about 5-600. This is pretty much the same as level10 and theirs includes and install. Maybe his did too."

CHILL OUT AND READ THE POST. I said I "believe" I called you before. I never said you didn't have a good company. You are not as reputable as LEVEL10, but I did not say it in a bad way.

"I'm only getting upset b/c you call all around to other companies but you haven't called me and you are talking bad about me. You have to give someone a little respect for even trying to do something most think that I am stupid for doing, (trying to build parts for the cougar)."

NEVER talked bad about you... I "thought" I did call you, but obviously I didn't or I was mistaken. And I WILL go with a local reputable company first before anybody for obvious common sense reasons. If I can get a reputable company around me to do it why would I drive my car hundreds of miles to your shop?

I never knocked your shop nor definately said I talked to you. Now chill out and don't get so defensive:)

Thanks

[CatMan]

Originally posted by: Jagular
First off I'd like to say that I'm not just SOME SHOP or SOME GUY. I have run this reputable shop for eleven almost twelve years now. No I'm not nationally recognized, but I have many many customers with cars that I have built myself that have 5 to 10 times the power that you cougar guys are making and I've built everything in thier cars from the engine to the tranny and the chassis. It may be true that you don't know who I am, but YOU haven't called ME. Why may I ask? I don't have a clue. I'm only getting upset b/c you call all around to other companies but you haven't called me and you are talking bad about me. You have to give someone a little respect for even trying to do something most think that I am stupid for doing, (trying to build parts for the cougar). Just my thoughts.

T.J.


Okay, here's the deal. You may not be just SOME SHOP or SOME GUY in your neighborhood, but to us, that's exactly what you are. You're some guy that decided to sign up on these boards and advertise his shop. I could say any damn thing I wanted to say about me and what I do, but that doesn't make it true. The thing is, there's no real way to prove or disprove what I might say about myself. Now a while ago, I asked you to post some before and after dyno numbers and/or 1/4 mile times to show people what you can really do, but you seemed to ignore that request. And why exactly would we want to drive a thousand miles to your shop, where we don't know you, your work, or what you can do as opposed to driving a thousand miles to level 10 who we all know a little more about? Not to mention the claims you've made that are just flat out wrong. And who exactly is talking bad about you? I haven't seen one place in this thread where someone insulted you or your business. The only thing that was said about you is the same thing I've been saying all along. That people would rather pay a little extra money and go with a well known company and have piece of mind than to go with someone they've never heard of or seen what they can do except for what he's said on an internet message board. That seems pretty reasonable to me and doesn't at all qualify as talking bad about you. And exactly what parts are you building for the cougar? From what you've said, all you're trying to do is get more business in your shop. You're not doing any R&D or coming up with products that aren't already available. You're just offering your service to more people over the internet. Why does that deserve respect? Because you're trying to make more money or get more cars in your garage? All we're trying to do here is share information and help find the best way to improve our cars performance. If you decide to take that as "talking bad about you" then that's your problem. But don't just come in here and jump down people's throats for no reason.

[Russell]

hey Jagular,

i have an almost brand new (2000 Miles on it) tranny out of an 01 cougar, thats gonna be replacing my tranny (97 contour) thats in bad bad shape. anything i could purchase from you and install/modify the tranny before i drop it in that will make a noticable difference?

[PizzaSlut]

Originally posted by: unisys12

Originally posted by: Pizza****

As a side note, I did read that 72% of the CD4E's last 150k miles or more. With the inline filter installed, that number goes up to something nuts, like 99%. I'd say whenever getting any tranny work done to get that inline filter added in as it is a 40 dollar kit that could save your tranny for a long, long time.

I would like to voice an "air of caution" when it comes to inline filters. None have actually been tested on the CD4E. The testing that was done, that I read anyway, was primarily for the Taurus family (what was it, AOD AX4N something like that anyway but not a CD4E). Since an inline filter, like the Magnafine, creates a void in the hydraulic system, pressures can drop. Although on the systems tested, this drop was within range of acceptable levels, on the CD4E when you already have problems with runaway line pressure and a weak hydraulic system overall, I would not chance it. On a newly rebuilt unit or a reman, maybe, but if got some miles on one... It is not worth the chance. As long as you change your fluid like you should, you will be fine. The Filtrek filter actually does a really good job.

If you really want to extend the life of the tranny, get an external cooler! For the money, it cannot be beat. Combine that with a good Syn based fluid and you have gold on your hands as far as I am concerned.

That is just my two cents anyway.

I was just going by what was stated here (http://www.filtertek.com/Ford%20Award%20Page.htm) about the cd4e and filtertek. I figured any filter is an inline filter, but I could be wrong.

[rrncousarmy]

Just checked the threads and jaguar is the guy I talked to about the torque converter. I called him on his cell and talked to him briefly. He told me the same thing he said in the post "Most of the gains from level 10 are made through their torque converter" and also he quoted me like $600-$650 dollars for a modified torque converter. There may have been a 150 core charge or something but I remember the price WAS NOT right for a guy who is not well known other than from his community. For level10 to charge $600 for a new torque converter with install (IIRC) is not bad considering I have been quoted the same locally. For a guy to come on the forum and tell us Level10 charges way too much and has been overcharging for years, and then turns around and trys to sell his work for the same price is ridiculous. I do recall you telling him to post numbers which he has failed to do. HE has FAILED to prove his word is worth anything. Put your money where your mouth is Jaguar. Don't make comments about how good your shop is and then not be unable to back it up...

I am not trying to knock you. I have no clue about how good your shop is. I think you need to rethink your business strategy though......
You knock a race proven and well established company while promoting your own, but then you cannot back it up and you expect us to buy from you.

Thanks

[CatMan]

For the people looking to learn more about transmissions and cars in general, check out this site (http://auto.howstuffworks.com/channel.htm?ch=auto&sub=sub-under-the-hood). It's got a TON of info on torque converters, auto trannies, clutches, engines, etc... and goes into a good bit of detail on exactly what things do, and how they do it. You could easily spend HOURS here just learning about different parts of your car. Very good stuff, and props go to Trevor (Fastcougar), since he had it in his sig a while ago and that was where I first found out about the site.

[unisys12]

Originally posted by: Pizza****I was just going by what was stated here (http://www.filtertek.com/Ford%20Award%20Page.htm) about the cd4e and filtertek. I figured any filter is an inline filter, but I could be wrong.

That article actually talks about the redesigning of the internal filter that is located inside the CD4E. Filtrek redesigned the filter to allow for freeer flow of the ATF through the filter during high speed/aggresive driving conditions. I have asked that one of these be installed in mine during its rebuild that it is currently under going.

The in-line filter that you might be thinking of, when speaking of in-line filters, is something along the lines of the MagnaFine filter. Ford actually has a part number for this in-line filter for the Tauras/Sable and Windstars as well I think, but not the CD4E. Like I said, just keep your fluid changed and all will be fine. :)

Back on the subject of TC's, I just noticed in my manual (98 Ford Service CD) that the stock convertor stall speed should be between 2383-2805. Now, why would someone spend 5-600 dollars for a gain of only about 400 RPMs average increase in stall speed? Doesn't seem to be worth it to me, but that is just me.

[rrncousarmy]

Thanks for the info unisys. I was told by jaguar that it was probably lower than 1400. Although your numbers seems high. I was under the impression that if a stall speed was say 1000 RPM, that is the lowest RPM that the car would launch at... 2800 seems VERY high especially with the gas mileage standards of today. If it was this do they make a transbrake for the CD4e. This would allow us to launch perfectly. Couldn't your tech cd be inaccurate because it was from 98 and the cougar was made in 99?? Assuming a new converter was made for 99 or newer cars.

[unisys12]

Yeah they make Trans Brakes, but I am not sure about our cars. Here is a nice little article that could get you started in some research on that subject... Trans Brake Tec - HotRod.com (http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/drivetrain/113_0205_trans/).

As for the question if the service manual is inaccurate, well yeah. Anything can be inaccurate. I have found only one thing in the manual so far that was inaccurate, but that was the mislabeling of a part location. Then again, this manual is hugh and I have not looked through it all.

If I was to be in the market for a higher stall speed convertor, I would first perform all mods to the car that I would do. Go do an extensive dyno of the car and then go to a shop that will custom make you a convertor and have them match it to the dyno numbers that you turned. Lastly, get the trans-brake, if there is actually one made for the CD4E. Remember, that without a trans-brake or some form of control over TC stall, you will never fully reach the stall limit of your TC, because our brakes alone are not enough to hold it back.

[1mnstang]

Just backing up what Unisys stated on the stall speeds. In my 2000 Cougar Ford Workshop Manual the Stall Speed Chart lists for a 2.5l 2383-2805 rpm.

[rrncousarmy]

cool. No need for a higher converter then. Hopefully a transbrake is available for MUCH better launches... Anybody know if a transbrake is bad for a transmission as far as putting a lot of strain on it or possibly causing damage??

Thanks

[unisys12]

A trans-brake, on our cars, would be electronically contolled. You would preset a stall speed and the electronics will do all the work for you. Basically, from what little I have gathered - just from reading around today - you are adding an extra solenoid to the tranny system that would control all this.

The way it works is by cutting of fluid pressure to the convertor, which allows the stator to spin at the same RPM as the engine. Once you reach a predetermind (programmed) RPM, the solenoid releases thus allow a rush of fluid back to the convertor. That is about as simple as I guess I can put it.

On older trannys, such as a C-6, the trans brake is actually applied and released through the us of a button.

Thanks "1mnstang" for checking that for me!!

[rrncousarmy]

If it was electronically controlled how could we turn it on and off? I guess only at full throttle it would be enabled?? I hope I can find some more info on this....

[unisys12]

Originally posted by: rrncousarmy
If it was electronically controlled how could we turn it on and off? I guess only at full throttle it would be enabled?? I hope I can find some more info on this....


I posted a link above that does a decent job of explaining the pros/cons of using a trans-brake above. In that article, it gives a pretty good explantion of how one works. Also, I explained, as simply as I could above. It is preprogrammed.