Brand new T4 Garrett Turbo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[naynay]

This Turbo is coming to my house, actually i bought TWO for incredibly low price!! I need to sell the other though, how much AND what is good about these turbo's?? Please help, need info!

[naynay]

Ok a better explanation of turbo is needed.....T04B15 S trim Turbine trim 0....Comp A/R .60....Turbine A/R .84. Any comments, is it good or bad for out 2.5L motor?

[DemonSVT]

Much too large.

I strongly suggest you do a lot of homework before you even think about building a turbo setup yourself.

[PuckPuck]

i'm certainly not a turbo expert, but I am learning and do know some things.... THAT IS TOO BIG of a turbo for sure... you won't produce power until like 5K rpm... than it's useless

[naynay]

Yep, your right. Carson just informed me of that one. The only way to use this monster would be a shot of Nitrous at low rpm's. Thanks!

[SquamDuck]

I knew a guy with an '86 Supra. He had a big turbo, and a big bottle of juice. Juice it at low RPMs, turbo spools, fly forward. He ran lower 11s, and he was having a horrible day. Big Turbo + Juice = Fun.

But, it would be really interesting to see a Cougar with this T4. You'd be rolling off the line, then the car would like jolt forward... shift.. roll... jolt. Hehe.

[naynay]

Oh trust me im still thinking about it:beer:

[pgtatx]

A T3, T3 super 60, or T3/To4e hybrid will all be fine on the cougar. Their lag is between 2k-3k...

[exigent]

Dont forget twin T-25's :)

[naynay]

Is that what you getting w/ your 3.0? If so whats your estimated HP?!

[Frank]

One of those T4's would look great on my coffee table.... what a conversation piece! :stupid:

[exigent]

Yeh... i plan on using the twin 25's with the 3.0

THey are a perfect match.... they come from a 300zx tt which is a 4vpc 3.0.... thus a perfect match... I have no hp estimate yet. It depends heavily on how much boost i actually run.

[Faboo]

Originally posted by: SquamDuck
I knew a guy with an '86 Supra. He had a big turbo, and a big bottle of juice. Juice it at low RPMs, turbo spools, fly forward. He ran lower 11s, and he was having a horrible day. Big Turbo + Juice = Fun.

But, it would be really interesting to see a Cougar with this T4. You'd be rolling off the line, then the car would like jolt forward... shift.. roll... jolt. Hehe.
That is alittle close to my saying in my sig....but it's coo:cool:

[DemonSVT]

Exigent.

Why try to run twin turbos over a single turbo setup? There are no real benefits outside of the bling, bling factor. Matter of fact single turbo setups are more efficient and will create more power and do it easier.

That's even getting by the whole trying to make them fit factor.


BTW - The twin small T2/T25's are going to require a good deal of boost to be worthwhile.
I would imagine you are going to build a completely forged 3L with low compression pistons to use them on right?
What type of engine management setup will you be using since you think that Ford's EEC-V is not up to the task?

Also these particular hybrid turbos are not known for their durability. They are highly susceptible to coking and bearing failure even though being watercooled!

[naynay]

Let me know how that twin setup is going...very interested. Also, im NOT being an ass but when Carson took a look under my hood he LAUGHED about how much room we have under the hood, not only that he got his 19" intercooler to fit with ease. I really dont think the "room facter" will be a problem. Good luck and i want pics for sure..especially the build up on the 3.0!!! If anything give me a ring on Aol IM...its "luckybfor"!! Im really thinking of doing the single turbo setup on a built 3.0...any info would be greatly appreciated!!

One more ?...who NOW(yes right now) has the fastest Cat?? Not a hybrid but a 2.5L Duratech either s/c or turbo. And do they still have problems w/ wheel hopping and traction, what have they done to solve this? Thanks and good luck!!

[Blackcoog]

Only way to stop traction problems is get a Quaife, Lowering springs, energy suspension mounts, and some Koni struts. I have almost no wheel hop but still roast the front tires just not with the dash board jumping up and down. 2.5L highest output has got to be Craig since James just blew his. Otherwise Kinger has 320hp or 277.9fwhp with his supercharged 3.0L.

[naynay]

Yes, i have all but the Struts(and posi). May have to buy them. Im hoping to get sponsered by a qualif company. As of right now w/ the turbo cost im hurting for money so that is the only way to get one.(damn it)!!! So really there are NO 2.5L (not 3.0) that are pushing or exceeding 300HP's? What do you guys think ill be pushing with the added nitrous to the air to air intercooler?? Just curious. Thanks!

[exigent]

Demon,
The engine will be built and it is already in progress. Unlike this guy i do have an idea what works and what does not. I actually am of the opinion that two very small turbos will be easier to fit then one larger one. These things are TINY if you ever saw one you would certainly know what i mean. Sizeing was becomeing an issue as i started to look at the 3.0 as an engine to build. Almost no import market for a larger v6 means i have very little info on compressor maps that match to a 3.0L. I looked and looked and found NOTHING that matched the kind of performance i wanted from the combo. I absolutely HATE turbo lag and find it annoying as all hell. By my calculations these turbos will have NO problem spooling even without ball bearings at a very very low rpm... much less then 3000 as close as i can tell. As far as durability im fairly uneasy with that but am confident that with properly designed watercooling system and modern synthetic oil the cokeing will not be a factor. Just because they liked to burn on a 300zx does not nesasarily mean they will burn the way i configure them. I know it really shouldnt be factored in but I got them at a great price. As long as the liquid cooling is kept to levels that allow enough flow for effective cooling AND a slow enough flow to allow time for the heat to get into the water.... im thinking they will be okay. Im fairly concearned about oil pressure at this time. There are several oil gally access points in the heads that im sure would be safe to use... if not im already going to employ a relocated filter so a tap there would be fine. The problem is that on a cold start oil pressure peaks to around 100 and beyond if you drive it cold. Im begining to be concearned that without an active oil pressure regulator the oil situation may stall my plans. I definatly plan to make more boost then the sf kit. And yes i understand all that entails. I will be happy when it runs a 11.99 and not until then... so im planning for that now. Yes i know about traction issues and yes i know there about 15 other things that will break with that kind of power... Ill use my crutch again but I have learned a thing or two about what can and cannot take the power by working with Leo. That also brings me to engine management. I know people who can get me an EEC in any flavor I need. The racing world is full of people running eec's that dont use a chip... Ive tried to tell people on here about it but they tend to not listen. That said... its entirely posible that the eec will not manage this system effectively. There is a massive problem known to few and im going to say NONE on here about part throttle boost aplication. At WOT the computer has no problem allowing for boost levels.... its meant for that. But... the emisions crap is still alive at part throttle and still tring to save you cats from raw fuel hitting them. It has trouble reacting fast enough with enough fuel to copensate when the throttle plate opens and the boost comes rushing in. There is always the option of exotic aftermarket engine management systems. A haltec or whatever... perhaps even a apexi unit would be enough. Worst case im sure several thousand could buy me a used motec system that i KNOW would have no touble running the thing. Sounds like a pipe dream but im still betting on things working from scratch. Ill start with the lowball and work my way up... im in no hurry. Im not going to rush such a project to completion. I planed my mtx swap for over 1 year and still was foolish enough to rush it at the end... and... big suprise i forgot some things. This project will not be plauged with such failures. Even after the engine and turbos are fitted i plan several several tests and calcs to ensure proper function before it ever leaves the garage. How many times have we seen people on here make bone head mistakes because of rushing? Heck i think even bnoon or was it buckshot had trouble on a 3.0 swap when they forgot to install the oil seal... im not pointing fingers... it happens.. i know that... and im going to do all that i can to stop it... and then when it does happen ill have time to address it.

I dont remember what the stock wastegates on the 300zx are set at... i beleive it was around 14 overall.. they are stagered iirc. Thats a starting point im hoping for. I beleive that with proper precautions and quality fuel.... this will not be a problem. Obviously ill be running pump gas 93 octane so compression will be reduced as you stated. I dont want to go to far but yet i dont want detonation. Im still decideing on whether or not to leave the engine out of the car after its built and wait for the turbo system to be finished before doing it all at once... this idea scares the bejesus outa me as there are so many variables.... so... that points to me running the 3.0 for a short time at least to work out the bugs. I really dont like the idea of running a non boosted 8:1 3.0 around town... but i may have no choice.

Id also like to say for the record that i dont have any hard feelings about our previous encounters.... Ill talk shop in a reasonable maner all day long. You bring up excelent points and I actually do respect your opinion. Im glad to see you have started to tone it down... beleive me I have the same problem. Thats why we go at it ... trevor and i used to go at it too... we eventually figured each other out though.. id like to do the same with you.

Ive got alot of work ahead of me and id rather have your information on my side.

[DemonSVT]

Oh the T25's will definitely spool up fast. I would definitely expect below 3000rpm even.

They may spool up so fast you may want to think about removing the secondary plates.

I would recommend lowering the CR level as they are going to require a significant amount of boost to sustain your engine.

Depending on the AR ratio of the units you have you may be looking at the 15-18psi level. (Yes IIIRC the stock settings were in the 12-14psi range)

Have you figured out how and where you are going to place the intercooler?


You can tune the EEC-V to compensate for those part throttle issues you are talking about.
You can also turn off the Cat temp switch. (I.E the excessive dumping of fuel)

All these are just "FYI" since I don't know all the details of what you are doing. (I.E. engine specs, etc)
Don't want you to get the wrong impression and think I'm telling you what you have to do. ;) :biggrin:

[wren]

I have a 91 300zx tt, the stock wastegate is set at 14 psi, and the turbos spool very quickly... they don't know the meaning of the word lag. IMO they would be absolutely awesome on a built 3.0 in a coug! I like the stock twins, there enough to hand most street competitors their ass ( in my town atleast), but not overkill like a single T-78 or something. I have run it on nothing less than 93 octane and haven't had any problems with it thus far... good luck exigent, keep us posted.

[exigent]

Im going water/air since the front of our car doesnt particularly lend itself to a front mounted cooler... plus lets face it accidents happen... i dont want to plow a $600 core into somthing.... not only that but the water/air seems to be more efficient in almost all respects. I have a crack tig welder guy that can weld anything to anything with almost nothing... hes really good... and he works for beer :-)

I have long ago relocated the battery... that is not an issue. The radiator can be moved quite a bit forward as show in the vortech kit. That will give me some extra room up front. The fans will either be VERY shaved or completely removed in favor of a slimline unit. In fact... a custom radiator that makes more use of frontal area is not out of the question.. Leo has one that is many times better then even the svt radiator. Worst case one of similar design would be good for me too. I plan on installing an oil filter rolcation kit of my own design. I will use one of the donut style taps and cap it off... that should save space over the common top feed relocation method. The front turbo will be mounted there.... right off the manifold of custom design. Again.. my crack welder will assist. I plan on fabricating with weld-el's and simply tacking them together. Ill allow the real welder to seal them and install the flanges. As far as the back bank... there IS room back there... not alot mind you but there is room. Worst case im not oposed to moving back a section of firewall. Perhaps even go so far as cutting out a section and welding in a new "box" to allow the turbo to live in. This is also why i chose water jacketed turbos... i know there will be mad heat back there.... im thinking worst case some heat wrap and perhaps even brake style ducting to that area will cool it. With some custom hood work/cowl induction a scoop could be easily employed to direct much air right onto the turbos area.... this is all assuming that heat becomes a problem... i will be monitoring heat durring initial testing to determine the need for cooling. From these two areas a common downpipe wil be used to connect to an aftermarket y-pipe. Ill probly just tow the car to the exhaust man when done or rig up some flex pipe just to get me there... either way ill have those custom bent to ensure a good fit. Plumbing the air INLET side of the back turbo may prove to a slight nitemere... im not 100% certain how im going to do that... I trust that a solution will present itself once its all in the car. As far as the air out side.... Some platic tubing will be employed. I recently discovered a method of mandrel bending polycarbonate tubing. Polycarbonate is extreamly durable and does not melt in the kind of temperatures seen under the hood. The new audi's run plastic tubes.... they work and work well. The intercooler will be mounted just as it has been in most turbo installs ive seen in the cougar... roughly above the tranny. I have yet to decide the position of the MAF(s).... that has somewhat caused me some strife... im not certain whether i should collect the two streams before the intercooler or as it enters the intercooler.... im thinking if i collect before this will alow a place for the maf... but turbulance may be an issue. Ill have to see when that time comes. With ragard to the eec... im going to be letting someone else do that. I will (hopefully) have access to the people who know the eec's better then ANYONE... i must remain vauge here. Like i said though... im willing to fall back upon several managment ideas. With regard to the secondaries... those are already gone. I seriously doubt low end tourqe will be a problem. I dont have the turbos in front of me but i think the a/r's are around .46-.48.... yes they should build boost fast :)

As far as the engine goes... im starting at the bottom and moving up. The main bearings will be replaced with what Leo runs in his car... hes never spun a bearing on that beast and lets face it.... ill NEVER drive the engine even half has hard as it is in his car. He revs MUCH higher then anyone around here has ever.... and thats a huge bearing killer... so im not worried about the mains. Since i have a high mileage block i will be having it checked for alignment and bored as nesasary. The crank is already forged and nobody has ever broken one or heard of one breaking so its being left alone. If its in the budget it will be micro polished though. The rods area already done... and have been for a while. Forged no doubt but otherwise nothing special. Obviously ill be using clevite bearings. The slugs will be weisco(sp) forged L/C tops. I also plan to spend the extra money and go with a copper head gasket with mechanicle interlock wire rooves machined for them. Arp studs will replace the ford bolts... albeit cautiously... the ford bolts are actually good... but im not going to take chances. And... thats it. No head work. Im going to smooth and port the exhaust a bit myself... its not rocket science on that side anyways... ill be using the 3.0 heads and valves. Ill be keeping the heads esentially stock for now... but... if the buget allows there will be work done there later...It will be a simple matter to remove the heads with the rest still in place so im not concearned right now. Obviously all the seals and bearings will be replaced.... all of them. Timing chains will be replaced and i will definatly be using the older style heavy chains... ask puckpuck why im doing that :) Phew... i dunno what i forgot but im sure i forgot somthing. I welcome discusion.

[naynay]

Umm..lets keep the BS comments to yourself please. You dont know me and ive never claimed to know all!!!

[PuckPuck]

Dave I may have the dyno tuning solution for you... hit me up and i'll get you some more info on it... but i can tell you it's local, they program the EEC itself, and is done by someone who knows the EEC by just looking at the hex code... apparently he doesn't like using the GUI interface :)

[Spoolnsaturn]

actually guys if you are gonna run a turbo on the V6 model you mine as well use the T4, being that you will have enough exhaust gas to spool it. I would guess you might get full boost at about 3500 give or take. If you use a t3 on a V6 its just gonna run out of breath being that it will be way to small, so basically your gonna get a super quick spool up but your top mid and top end is gonna be garbage or non existant just my .2 cents

[naynay]

No T4...would work but doesnt make since to not spool until 4000rpm.

[exigent]

Umm..lets keep the BS comments to yourself please. You dont know me and ive never claimed to know all!!!

Huh?

[exigent]

Okay.... im sorry i kinda stole your post... i dunno if thats what cheesed you but here goes.


To respond to your post... The t4 is NOT nesasarily TOO big.... you need to find out what kind of turbines are in that thing. There are several several diffrent configurations for a "t4". You need to find the a/r and c/r ratios for the turbos and then decide using a map (if available for your turbo) if that turbo is what you want for any particular engine.

You absolutely must match the turbo to the engine if you plan on making it worth it. Id go so far as to say that planning is 70% of the work in doing a turbo. Ill give up my secret....

goto the local book store or amazon and buy "Maximum Boost" by Corky Bell. Its got everything you need(well... sorta) to make yourself a turbo system. Its an excelent book.

[exigent]

okay... i jsut found a flow map for that tubo... is WAY too big...

[naynay]

Sorry..had a stick up my ass that day. No no...keep talking nothing wrong w/ someone that knows what hes talking about explaining things. I have already gotten rid of the turbos anyway. Might want to check w/ Carson but i believe the turbo im using is a T25 Garret w/ air to air intercooler (front mounted). Just to put this out in the open....Itsturbo says they will put their air to air intercooler against any air to water intercooler. What do you think?

What custom chip should i use....i know Carson is set on who to go w/ but what do you guys think about it? Oh...check out next months 5.0 Mustang mag...itsturbo has a cover on thier turbo kit!!!! Photo shoot is monday! Hell yes! They just finished a turbo kit on a Neon and it is NOW running 12.9 sec 1/4 mile...ouch...very nice!!

What about the headers...anyone want or need any for $350.00 coated of course?? Made by Itsturbo.net!!

[PuckPuck]

What about the headers...anyone want or need any for $350.00 coated of course?? Made by Itsturbo.net!!

do you mean Turbo headers or Natrually Aspirated headers... if you are talking about naturally aspirated headers... ummm.... PICK ME !!! :)

[naynay]

Yes...not turbo manifolds(naturally aspirated)!! Ok, thats one...i need a couple more buyers. It would be nice if someone could drive to itsturbo and have them installed and then dyno'd to ensure good hp gains. So...kinda need someone willing to drive to Dayton Ohio. I would do it guys but im getting the turbo done and have very little time before a scheduled car show on May 9th. Thanks for the input though!! More buyers the cheaper it WILL be. My main objective is to get us the lowest price for GREAT products. Tired of paying so much money and the ricer boys paying almost half of what it costs us. What other products for our cars would you guys need....or want?

[exigent]

Itsturbo says they will put their air to air intercooler against any air to water intercooler. What do you think?


I think itsturbo is ignoring physics. Water has the ability to transfer heat at like 5 times the level of air. With an water/air system you have the opertunity to make nearly 100 percent efficency... you will never even come close to that with air/air. Perhaps with a co2 shot onto it... but then again why not just run nitrous at that point.


One need look no further then formula one to see what you should run in any turbo system. Unless ive lost my mind NONE of those cars run air/air. If they did.. i would have to imagine it has only to do with the fact they run like 200000 times faster then you will ever drive the street car.

I think a t25 is too small for a 2.5 duratec. I think you would be far better served by a t28 or perhaps even a t3. That t25 will spool so fast its going to be hard to drive! Its going to run outa boost by the time you hit 4000rpm.

My t25's will be driven off about 1500cc's and I expect those to reach boost by around 2200rpm... maybe less... imagine throughing 2500cc's at the same turbo!

Id check flow maps for the ultimate word.. either way.. id seriously consider buying that book i told you about... it will increase your knowlege about turbos to the point where you can make a much more educated buy.

[naynay]

By me working and buying into Itsturbo i'll be learing as i go. Hopefully! You are correct about the T25....but i believe once again i quoted it wrong(have a bad habit of doing that), the last time i spoke to Carsons' employees they had mentioned purchasing a T3 for my car...but that info came from someone else other than from Carson. I'll talk to him and find out the correct list thats going on my car. Maybe you could give your 2 cents worth...i know DeamonSVT spoke alot to Carson when we first came on board about the turbo kit. The outcome was Carsons' info was correct and on the money. So far....

[naynay]

My poor car....turbo is on the way!!!!!!!!!!! See attachments!

[SVTConcept]

Hey there I'm new to the forum but if your going to do anything with Turbo I would suggest picking up a copy of a magazine hot compact and imports issue may 2003 it covers everything you need to know about turbos and all the necessary requirements.

[naynay]

Yeah, i bought a few books on them...really not to hard to figure out! Thanks!