Blown Turbo Motor - Updates

[ProjectCougar]

Well at this time... it appears the only damage to the 2.5L Block was rings and a cracked piston in Cylinder 2 of the right bank... I will hopefully have photos within the week... The other parts of my motor will be for sale since I am not going to be using the bottom end of the motor...

Talked with Street Flight today and they mentioned that Ford Rings suck so if you are turboing the car, look into upgrading your rings before trying to run 8psi...

Thanks

[Slikrthnu]

Hey, someone should make a How To or something on what to replace and why on our engines (I4 and V6). Obviously there'll be a lot of things like block reinforcement, and new gaskets and stuff cuz of the boost. Just a thought.

[pgtatx]

That shouldn't have happened that soon in it's life...either way... Everyone who wants a turbo better hope that was a freak occurance, cause most people on here turbop their cars incorrectly and never rebuild the bottom end, and will end up with a large home in their wallet.

Also a cracked piston isn't a good thing either...

For all you who think you can drop $5k on a turbo, then $1000 or so for installation, and then think all will be well...think again. Don't be the stupid honda owners. Some of which I am friends with. They build a monster engine, and forget about the suspension, brakes, and most importantly the driveline...and blow their tranny, can't stop, and can't launch due to the soft suspension...

Do everything...or end up like them...

[ArizonaCougar]

Originally posted by: pgtatx

For all you who think you can drop $5k on a turbo, then $1000 or so for installation, and then think all will be well...think again. Don't be the stupid honda owners. Some of which I am friends with. They build a monster engine, and forget about the suspension, brakes, and most importantly the driveline...and blow their tranny, can't stop, and can't launch due to the soft suspension...

Do everything...or end up like them...

Nicely said, Jeremy...

[Slikrthnu]

Wurd! These kids don't even research, or understand how stuff works. In this case, ignorance is NOT bliss, just makes you look stupid. HAHA! Stupid honda owners.

[Kinger]

I have heard that the rings are made from a premium alloy (can't remember which right now) and are actually good units. I do know that a bad ring won't cause a piston to crack. Did you detonate Project Cougar?

[Gary]

wow, this turbo kit just got a lot more expensive.

Street Flight should come and post what they think of this........

[ProjectCougar]

Street Flight responded... read my first post.... I still urge you to get the kit... the kit is great and worth every dollar... just turn the boost down to 6psi or so.... Until you build the motor.

[Pinebox]

blown rings and a cracked piston happened with just 2psi more boost????? 6 up to 8psi :confused:
That concerns me a bit. Granted I don't know a lot about turbos, but with a supercharger, boost can rise 1-2psi just with colder weather. Cold air is more dense which means more boost.
How do turbos react to cold weather, do they do the same thing? I'm curious, 'cause I'd like to turbo my car one day, but if this boost increase is a problem, it makes me reconsider the turbo. I might just go with a total N/A build, when the time comes.

[Kinger]

James your scaring the hell out of people. It is safe to run 8psi and I know lots of people run 10 psi, its been proven time and time again with SC'ed SVT contours which in theory should be less reliable because of the high CR. There is a reason your piston cracked and it isn't because of an extra 2 psi of boost.

[AtomicInternet]

I run 8psi no problem.

[Kaiser]

I run 11psi sometimes but usually about 7. When I upgrade the fuel pump I should be in the market for a larger compressor wheel and some P & P heads.

FYI - James compression = 9.7
- My compression = 10.25

[FastCougar]

To clear up any confusion, the only way is to post pictures of the heads, pictures of the block with pistons in and out and finally, pictures of the piston in question by itself (with rings on if possible). I seriously doubt this is a ring issue and if it is, it's probably a fluke manufacturing defect. As for an explination of the cracked piston, my money is on either A) detonation, which would explain the cracked rings as well or B) A foreign particle, a spark plug "finger" comes to mind, like what happened to Heather.

[topgunz1]

it blew a piston going on and off the trailer? wow!

jfwy james, sorry about your misfortune

[ProjectCougar]

First set of pics will be arriving later today... Engine builder just called and said when the drained the turbo... it had 2 quarts of oil in the turbo..... NOT GOOD

[ChrisHightower]

Originally posted by: ProjectCougar
First set of pics will be arriving later today... Engine builder just called and said when the drained the turbo... it had 2 quarts of oil in the turbo..... NOT GOOD

Sounds like hydro lock from too much oil. This wouldn't be from blown rings. Is there a check valve on the PCV?

[FastCougar]

I stand behind my assessment of detonation ... bad/mislabled gas maybe?

[CougarBoi]

James how many miles did you put on the engine since you got the turbo?

[ProjectCougar]

617 miles before it started blowing smoke

[gamiller]

sorry to hear about that. now i know why you are having it rebuilt.

i was flipping through the June '02 edition of Sport Compact Car last night, and read that the new Cavlier/Sunfire motor got stress-tested when "[GM] bumped up the nitrous in 25 hp increments until the overworked stock Ecotec spilled its guts. That happened at about 285 hp. All four rods made a convenient exit through the side of the block right at 4400 RPM. Later analysis showed the rods experienced compressive failure, but there were absolutely no other issues."

i bet every auto manufacturer does something similar. if we could get ahold of similar information from Ford, it would save alot of trial and error in our pursuit of significant peformance gains.

[PuckPuck]

I remember seeing oil dripping from the turbo @ ImportFest..... i'm leaning towards BAD turbo unit..... or intercooler unit... maybe some water from the air-water intercooler blew past a seal, got sucked into the engine and hydrolocked.....

[FastCougar]

hydrolocking would bend a rod long before shattering a piston. Again, I stand behind my assessment of detonation as the cause. That or a foreign particle, which could in fact be a turbo impeller vane (no mention of that).

James, I remember you mentioning that your car was tested with different octane levels just after install during tuning. What octane level was it left at?

[HangTime]

With all the problems people have been having with returnless fuel pumps, what are the odds that your stock fuel pump may have started to go on you (or hiccup'd) causing a sudden lean condition to kick in? Were you low on fuel when it went (less than 1/4 tank)?

[eurocrisp]

Originally posted by: ProjectCougar
617 miles before it started blowing smoke

wow, id hate to plunk down $6k, drive for 3 weeks and then have my motor 'splode

[GrandMasterKhan]

there are too many unanswered questions... I see no reason for a well tuned motor to take to take a dive.

James. Did you let the turbo kit break in before running the piss out of?

If i remember correctly its 5000 miles. that means you drive like grandma for a while. but considering your car is mosly for show i doubt the turbo had been broken in at all. This could possible have caused the turbo to fail. those 617 miles wherent out racing people was it?

Detonation is a likely as well. what octane of gas where you running? did you have the correct plugs?

[exigent]

Well here we go again... yet another person blows up an engine with forced induction... and yet one MORE time ill repeat what i have 100 times already.


How many of you get into the rev limiter every now and then?

K... im assuming ALL of you with a mtx and even you guys that self shift your atx.

Now... lets THINK for a minute. What happens when you hit the rev limiter. Well the computer turns OFF the fuel injectors first to prevent an over rev... thats right everyone seems to forget that little tidbit. So hear we are.... 7000 rpm... 8psi careaning into the chamber... and little or no fuel.

Now what happens when you have a LEAN LEAN LEAN 8 psi mixture in the chamber when the piston comes up? OH yeh... DETONATION!!!!
If you are lucky it doesnt hurt anything... if you are slightly unlucky it flat spots the piston... if you are fairly unlucky you blow a piston apart... and if you are REALLY unlucky the detonation happens while the piston is comming up still and you blow the piston apart, shatter the rod(sinter metal explodes nicely) and break the crankshaft! WOO HOO!

DUHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!


We all knew this 2-3 years ago when Craig's dyno tech blew up his engine on the dyno! WHY DO WE IGNORE THE OBVIOUS!!!

It doenst matter if you have the most exotic alloy pistons and rings on earth. A detonation burns at like 18000°F iirc... you know of ANY metal that can handle that without melting down?


Oh.. and as far as rings go kinger is right. Ford makes EXCELENT rings for the sole purpose of emisions. Blow by makes your emisions go to the toilet so the rings are VERY good. Our cylinder wall smoothness and trueness is measured to a degree of presision almost astoundingly small and downright unbeleiveable to old school gear heads. The rings are packed TIGHT to make sure the emisions stay low.

Somtimes we blame the parts... when really we should blame ourselves. I for one know of several people who actually beleive our coated pistons to be in several ways superior to forged in a turbo installation. For one a forged piston must be much smaller then a hyperectic piston in the same bore because of expansion iirc. So right there you introduce a problem. Sure forged is much much stronger.... but its a WELL known fact that even forged pistons cannot withstand sustained detonation.

After writeing this it hit me that perhaps street flight thought of this and "fixed" the eec. But i find that hard to beleive really. The eec-v is HARD wired to cut the fuel. Its VERY VERY difficult to raise the rev limiter beyond that becuase is requires physical modification to a VERY advanced peice of computer equipment. Not to many people are smart or perhaps stupid enough to touch them. Unless they TOTALLY eliminated the fuel cut they are going to see this time and time again. The fuel cut MUST be removed and the rev limited switched to an ignition cut system. You NEED a rev limter... especially with a turbo... but you definatly dont want a fuel cut rev limiter.


Talked with Street Flight today

Good... ask them what happens when the ford eec-v hits the rev limter. Then ask them what happens when that boosted mixture detonates without much fuel.... Tell them to stop blaming ford and start putting out a kit that actually is safe..... especially for $5k!!!! The kit should be gold plated for that much money!

[naynay]

Ummm, didnt he have a Ignition system put on his car?? That would be a HUGE mistake not to put one on for the soul purpose of not detonating!! MSD makes a programmable ignition system that was disigned to retard your timing at a certain rpm(which is determined by the tuner). It also will shut down your ignition if needed! These people need to take the correct precautions befor slapping 300hp's to there cars!

[Kaiser]

Um...there are 5 spots to change the rev limiter, and it's not hard to change. 4 in the scalers and one table, rev_limit_vs_torque. James had his EEC reflashed by the "FORD MAN". He also had a chip to run on the street. I doubt highly that James hit the rev limiter and if he did that's his deal not the shop.

[155Cougar]

exigent, I think you're explanation would be relevant if James was running nitrous (when Craig's motor blew up on he dyno he was running a Zex nitrous kit). However, with a turbo, if he hits the rev limiter the fuel shuts off and the turbo just pushes air into the engine, there is no fuel to ignite. I guess you could say that motor is running very lean but there will be no detonation due to the lack of fuel.

[PuckPuck]

Originally posted by: 155Cougar
exigent, I think you're explanation would be relevant if James was running nitrous (when Craig's motor blew up on he dyno he was running a Zex nitrous kit). However, with a turbo, if he hits the rev limiter the fuel shuts off and the turbo just pushes air into the engine, there is no fuel to ignite. I guess you could say that motor is running very lean but there will be no detonation due to the lack of fuel.

air when compressed becomes HIGHLY flammable.... 8 psi, piston comming up compressing piston, no fuel = BOOM.... the fuel serves 2 purposes... 1 to cool, the other to burn... if you have no fuel to burn the air alone will burn creatign the 18000* explosion which means hello blue piston

[FastCougar]

You can program all day long and push the limiter up and up and up, but what good does it do when someone is always willing to keep pushing their motor harder than it should? Until James replies, we are just spinning our wheels here. However, as I see it, there are few posibilities as to why this has happened and only a tear down and detailed pictures of the heads/cylinders will reveal the truth:

1) opperator error leading to detonation (wrong fuel octane, hitting the limiter, etc.)
2) software/hardware failure leading to overboost situation.
3) foreign particle ingested (heads would be nicely scared as well ... right DanG?). This can range from spark plug to valve to turbo vane, etc.

Again, for the 5th time, I would bet my next paycheck on detonation as the cause. Now, the key to avoiding this on other CDW-27 cars is finding the source of the detonation and fixing it and/or making sure it NEVER happens again.

[155Cougar]

Originally posted by: PuckPuck

Originally posted by: 155Cougar
exigent, I think you're explanation would be relevant if James was running nitrous (when Craig's motor blew up on he dyno he was running a Zex nitrous kit). However, with a turbo, if he hits the rev limiter the fuel shuts off and the turbo just pushes air into the engine, there is no fuel to ignite. I guess you could say that motor is running very lean but there will be no detonation due to the lack of fuel.

air when compressed becomes HIGHLY flammable.... 8 psi, piston comming up compressing piston, no fuel = BOOM.... the fuel serves 2 purposes... 1 to cool, the other to burn... if you have no fuel to burn the air alone will burn creating the 18000* explosion which means hello blue piston

PuckPuck, are you serious? Do you think that 8psi plus the 9.5:1 compression of the cylinder is enough to cause autoignition of air? Some diesel engines have compression ratios in the neighborhood of 25:1 and they still need a fuel charge as a ignition catalyst. I doubt that air compressed at that pressure with would generate the temperatures necessary to autoignite air (if air even has can even has an autoignition temperature). Your explanation would mean that every time the piston came to the top of it's compression stroke it would explode as gasoline is far more combustible than air at the same temperature and pressure. If just air could ignite at 8psi then so would air and fuel. I realize that the fuel serves to cool the cylinder prior to combustion but there is relatively little fuel injected into each cylinder and the cooling properties of gasoline are not that great. Also, don't get me wrong here, I'm not attacking you, I'm just disagreeing with you.

I'd have to agree with FastCougar that detonation is the cause of the problem here. I just don't think these motors were built to put up with the rigors of turbo charging.

[PuckPuck]

detonation is essentially too much air and no or not enough fuel...

now remember the air isn't blowing up on it's own... it has a spark to ignite it...

remember also diesel engines don't have spark plugs in the combustion chambers... they work solely of compression, when the piston comes up the mixture hits the 25:1 compression and explode... in gasoline engines we use spark plugs to explode the mixture... if the mixture is too lean (which is often the case on blown turbo motors) than you will get detonation or spark knock or pinging or whatever term you want to use... they all mean the same thing... a blue piston or a hole in the piston....

[exigent]

Whoever said its "easy" to change eec-v's in a bit confused. The proms are all encrypted and each "catch code" has a diffrent cypher. It may be a simple matter to upload a new program... but whos writeing that program?

I still have SERIOUS doubts about james link to ford... im sorry but I happen to know that even Leo got VERY little help from ford that he did not obtain through his connection of WORKING for them. I seriously doubt if a high profile national race series car couldnt get support that james could. There are HUGE liabiltites at work here. If "ford" reflashes james eec-v and he goes out and wraps it around a tree... he can SUE ford big time. They simply WILL NOT give or allow anything to be given to ANYONE for a street car. Its simply not even open for discussion. Ford does NOT hook people up for street cars.


Now... onto the eec itself. I dont care if they DID raise the fuel cut. ONE missed shift and its all over. Especialy with a trubo motor! Remember when he said it spun the clutch on the dyno? Go get in your car... do a hard launch and mid way through lets say second gear push in the clutch and hold down the gas. OH... thats right... in about .003 seconds you are in the rev limiter. Ill bet 50 bucks when the clutch spun on the dyno he kissed it even IF it was raised to a VERY impractiacal 8500 or so.

With regard to detonation.... there is PLENTY of unburnt fuel either left in the chamber or sucking back through the exhaust or comming in the egr (if still hooked up) to make one HELL of a detonation. Boost doesnt stop when the rev limiter kicks in. It only takes one or two detonations to blow a piston apart... especially a weak stock piston.

Deisle (Sp) engines work COMPLETELY diffrent from gasoline. They are DESIGNED to detonate with a fuel that burns much diffrent then gasoline. The rods and pistons are much much stronger in a deisel and consecquently they can only rev so high... usually less then 3000rpm...

Bottom line is this is yet ANOTHER engine killed NOT by forced induction but the lack of planning of the builder in eliminating a fuel cut rev limiter that is nothing but a ticking time bomb.

I can WAIT for james to respond...

[155Cougar]

I understand the difference between gasoline and diesel engines. My point wasn't a comparison between the two it was just that I doubt a turbo motor can produce enough compression to autoignite air (which, I still don't think is possible. But, I'm a computer scientist not a chemist ;) ). In fact, even just compressing air and then introducing a spark is not enough to ignite it, you need a catalyst. If you could just compress air and then introduce a spark and cause combustion then why wouldn't we design engines that ran on nothing other than compressed air and scrap this whole fossil fuel thing?

Furthermore, if I'm not mistaken when you hit the rev limiter both fuel and spark are withheld until the revs come back down to within acceptable limits. Even is the ignition system isn't shut off there isn't enough unburnt fuel in the exhaust to cause detonation. There may be a few little pops as the remaining fuel burns but nothing as violent as a full fuel charge exploding.

PuckPuck (and FastCougar), I do have to agree, that detonation is the cause of the engine failure. However, I don't think the detonation was caused by hitting the rev limiter. Although, I could be wrong, it's happened before.... once. :biggrin:

[Kaiser]

I should have phrased it differently. With a GUI interface it is much easier.

[DemonSVT]

Originally posted by: ProjectCougar
Talked with Street Flight today and they mentioned that Ford Rings suck so if you are turboing the car, look into upgrading your rings before trying to run 8psi...

Thanks
Funny how Duttweiler used the stock SVT rings on his 450HP 15psi turbo beast and said the engine had a lot more in it.

Sounds as if you were turning up the boost and not pulling out timing to me...

Also what about all the S/C guys running 9-10psi and 265-300FWHP for several years.

The hundred million dyno runs to Chris's engine.

This failure sounds self inflicted. You yourself made mention of reaching new HP levels after Street Flight tuned the car for you. How did you gain all that extra horsepower? Raised boost perhaps?

[DemonSVT]

Exigent -

You really don't know what you are talking about here. Making these baseless, unsubstantiated, and uninformed statements is ludicrous.
All it appears is that you are trying to stir up the pot when you really don't know anything about the facts and equipment used and that is just plain ignorant.

You make it sound like they have a hex editor and are hacking random points in the code. What kind of crock of crap is that. Sounds a little like slander to me. Ignorant slander maybe...

SF definitely has one of the best EEC-V setups around. (I said one of, not the best)

Definitely better then Superchips' or Diablo's jokes for chips!

It's better then my TwEECer (which again makes most aftermarket chip companies look like utter garbage!)

This is not a plug & play guessing game hoping you have a inkling of what's going on. This is the real deal software and interface we are talking about. No guessing involved because none is needed!

I wouldn't doubt it's better than what you have seen or was used on "Leo's team" (what a crutch)
Unless maybe he uses a stand alone management setup and then it still could be as Ford's EEC-V is one of the best designed and advanced management setups around. Then consider we are talking real world, street use, driveability and it definitely is.

Get off your high horse and open your eyes for a change. However at least keep your mouth shut when you are spouting nothing but conjecture or misinformation about something you obviously don't know about. (Since you have NO clue what they used for programming for starters!)

What a joke... Good moderator you are... :disgust:

[SLaPiNFuNK]

wow.. this thread just turned me away from doing any Forced Induction...

:)

Thanks for helpin me save some money!

[ov3n]

Originally posted by: DemonSVT
Exigent -

You really don't know what you are talking about here. Making these baseless, unsubstantiated, and uninformed statements is ludicrous.
All it appears is that you are trying to stir up the pot when you really don't know anything about the facts and equipment used and that is just plain ignorant.

You make it sound like they have a hex editor and are hacking random points in the code. What kind of crock of crap is that. Sounds a little like slander to me. Ignorant slander maybe...

Get off your high horse and open your eyes for a change. However at least keep your mouth shut when you are spouting nothing but conjecture or misinformation about something you obviously don't know about. (Since you have NO clue what they used for programming for starters!)

What a joke... Good moderator you are... :disgust:

AAAAAAAAAAAAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
That complete 0wn1ng of exigent was a long time coming!!
I can't count how many times he's attacked people/things he doesnt understand or doesnt agree with..
his attitude has always been "my way is the only way YOU IDIOTS!"

:rofl:

[PuckPuck]

Originally posted by: 155Cougar
I understand the difference between gasoline and diesel engines. My point wasn't a comparison between the two it was just that I doubt a turbo motor can produce enough compression to autoignite air (which, I still don't think is possible. But, I'm a computer scientist not a chemist ;) ). In fact, even just compressing air and then introducing a spark is not enough to ignite it, you need a catalyst. If you could just compress air and then introduce a spark and cause combustion then why wouldn't we design engines that ran on nothing other than compressed air and scrap this whole fossil fuel thing?

Furthermore, if I'm not mistaken when you hit the rev limiter both fuel and spark are withheld until the revs come back down to within acceptable limits. Even is the ignition system isn't shut off there isn't enough unburnt fuel in the exhaust to cause detonation. There may be a few little pops as the remaining fuel burns but nothing as violent as a full fuel charge exploding.

PuckPuck (and FastCougar), I do have to agree, that detonation is the cause of the engine failure. However, I don't think the detonation was caused by hitting the rev limiter. Although, I could be wrong, it's happened before.... once. :biggrin:

1. There is always unburnt fuel in the combustion chamber...
2. Fuel cut off first... ignition cut off 250 rpms later
3. hitting the rev limiter on any kind of boosted engine, cutting off the fuel, will most definitely cause detonation, and that is true on any engine....

[gyger]

I'm learning alot
thanks guys
sorry to hear about the motor James
and it's nice to read techi arguements:)

[bnoon]

My guess on Jame's motor is either a defective turbo oil feed/drain or a foreign body got trapped in the turbo oil feed/drain. Cooking the oil and restricting flow to the rest of the engine, causing oil break down and increased friction on the failed cylinder (others as well). Rising heat (due to the lack of oil in the cylinders) caused detonation at an unusually low boost level. It is the only thing that explains all of his symptoms of bad rings, cracked piston, and 2+ quarts of oil stuck in the turbo and lines...

Taaaaaaddddddaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhh :banana:

[PuckPuck]

Originally posted by: bnoon
My guess on Jame's motor is either a defective turbo oil feed/drain or a foreign body got trapped in the turbo oil feed/drain. Cooking the oil and restricting flow to the rest of the engine, causing oil break down and increased friction on the failed cylinder (others as well). Rising heat (due to the lack of oil in the cylinders) caused detonation at an unusually low boost level. It is the only thing that explains all of his symptoms of bad rings, cracked piston, and 2+ quarts of oil stuck in the turbo and lines...

Taaaaaaddddddaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhh :banana:

and explains the small puddle of oil under the turbo housing

[DemonSVT]

Originally posted by: PuckPuck
and explains the small puddle of oil under the turbo housing
So would overboosting the turbo.

I am very interested to know how he managed to make another 25FWHP or so after he left Street Flight. How was so proud about telling everyone he was playing with things and now making more power. I even recall a post somewhere about raising boost pressure, but for some reason it's gone now. (not surprising since that post was before he blew the engine)

I wonder if the turbo shafts showed any signs of overspinning or swelling??? It's is extremely rare for a turbo's bearing housing to have catastrophic failure.

A faulty turbo component would have surfaced very early in the install runs. The turbo can exceed 100,000rpm. A faulty part will not survive that and then suddenly xxxx miles later fail out of the blue.
A pinched or bad return line would have surfaced long ago to unless it was a NEW occurrence that happened after that fact. (I.E. from modifying a component close to it as an example)

Also the size of material needed to clog the oil return line would be quite significant. I don't see how SF's tuning could cause that result in any way.
Also if the main bearings are not damaged I don't see how that would have an effect on the engine damage in question. Even then it's the pistons and rings that are broken. That's a tell-tail sign of detonation. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out more boost without pulling timing = detonation!

[FastCougar]

Let's not forget the simplest explination ... bad/mislabled fuel or <gasp>putting in lower octane by mistake. If the car was tuned for 94 octane and he put in 91, BOOM!

[IamSPDRCR]

I even recall a post somewhere about raising boost pressure, but for some reason it's gone now. (not surprising since that post was before he blew the engine)

Hey when you have friends in high places things like this can happen. How fast were you backing it out of the trailer to blow the motor?

[PuckPuck]

DemonSVT - i think you are refereing to thoses posts a little wrong...

James claimed an extra 25hp WHILE he was still at SF... on his last day actually.... remember James was the first one to get custom tuning from SF's Ford Expert.

There is one other piece of info.... for at least one run during testing, the boost level was raised to 10+PSI.....

as far as i know,.... no one else touched James' car after SF installed the turbo, and he was started to get problems with it soon after leaving their shop.... I have talked to James and he is fairly certain on why it blew, but doesn't want to point fingers or start anything and would rather not be quoted about it....

[ProjectCougar]

IamSPDRCR: You have no friends in high places... you are going straight to ..... Oh forget it...

FYI: The motor blew while DRIVING to a car show over 150miles away from the house. I joined Tidewater NECO for a Mustangs and Fords show in Virginia Beach. The car was trailered to 4 events after that show with a blown motor becuase I had some high profile shows to attend.

[FastCougar]

Is that when Pierre saw the oil pooling? That would explain a lot.

[ProjectCougar]

Pierre saw oil when the motor was already blown up. I had to make that show in Toronto for Sponsors (Falken). I would never drive a car leaking oil. Everytime the car was driven, the oil was checked before leaving.

[exigent]

I got owned?

Hehhehe. Where did i make mention of hex editing? Here's the deal. There is a HARDWARE rev limiter. Understand? As in NOT SOFTWARE DRIVEN. As in... you cant fix it with a reflash or a chip. You must physically disable it.

Not only that... but it doesnt matter how high the rev limiter was set. If the system was not designed so that SPARK was cut BEFORE gas you WILL get detonation EVERY time you BUMP THE REV LIMITER.

Is that simple enough for you?

As for the "Leo's Team" slam... I EARNED my position on the team. I dont even flaunt it on here... i could bring it up at every chance and I hardly even talk about it except to make a reference on somthing. In fact... im expressly forbiden to speak of 99% of what I know because Leo doesnt want HIS work (money) going out for free! Im getting in the car as soon as I leave this post and going to the race in Sebring FL. Thats not because when I work on his car i "guess" or "make comments about things I know nothing about".

What I say can be backed up 99% of the time and id be MORE then happy to admit if I was ever fundamentally wrong on anything.

Fact of the matter here is that im not wrong... i may be wrong perhaps about how this particular failure occured... but then I never exactly stated that i KNEW why his motor failed... it was pure conjecture.

On the other hand.... everything I stated IS FACT in my hypothetical of him hitting the rev limiter.

Puck is VERY correct.... when you run to 7000 and WOT you are at FULL rich... most likely depositing much unburnt fuel out the tail pipe. There is nothing wrong with that... you dont want to run lean... but.... if suddenly the next time the piston comes up for a compression stroke you didnt ADD fuel....(because the eec just turned off the injectors cus you hit the fuel cut rev limiter) and that spark plug fires with maybe 10% of the fuel it should have... you get one hell of an 18000 flame.... if you call that not knowing what im talking about you need serious help. You may have "0wn3d" me in your post... but the fact remains that at no time in that post did you even attempt to prove anything I said wrong.



Get off your high horse and open your eyes for a change. However at least keep your mouth shut when you are spouting nothing but conjecture or misinformation about something you obviously don't know about. (Since you have NO clue what they used for programming for starters!)

Get off YOUR high horse and tell me for fact that SF took out (or raised) the stock fuel cut rev limiter and set an IGNITION cut rev limter BELOW the fuel cut...

Then you can slam me all you want pally wally.

Oh... and next time you tell someone
You really don't know what you are talking about here. Making these baseless, unsubstantiated, and uninformed statements is ludicrous. You probably want to back that up with some sort of evidence as to why you think that is true. All you did is slam me for who i am and what I say.


You guys really want to know why im so brunt? Because you need it. Im not better then any of you... if ive said it once ive said it 100 times on this board . MY FIRST POST ON THIS BOARD WAS "WHAT INTAKE SHOULD I BUY"!!! I make NO claim to being superior, I can though... read... learn... test and try...

There is more to the world then what everyone TELLS you is correct. Especially on a board like this. Usually 5% of the people actually know anything and the other 95% just spout what they heard. I tell it like it is... and because im brunt i HOPE to get the point accross... its funny too because if some certain other people on here were to say the same thing you wouldnt dare say anything... in fact most people dont... i have a tendency of being the LAST to post in a topic because after I say something the question is summed up.

If people dont want to listen thats fine... and if you feel like im saying.
"my way is the only way YOU IDIOTS!" Im really sorry... cus you know what? Ive NEVER said anything like that. I post what i feel is 100% correct. If its not I more then welcome and inteligent rebutal. You hit me with personal attacks though... and I dont think thats right. Anyone here who would like to tell me where im wrong in anything Ive stated here can more the bring it to my attention.

I find it FUNNY that James didnt mention anything about the rev limiter business. I dont blame him... if it was that he shares some blame with mostly SF who would be quite embaressed.

What PISSES me off is comments about fords rings. (hows this) "What a crutch"

Ive said all im going to in this topic so dont bother locking it on my behalf... it would just be another James post that gets locked and im not about to contribute to that. For the record... I dont think this is James' fault... hows that? I think its going to end up SF's for not thinking about a fuel cut scenario.

SO... Tell me were is was baseless, unsubstantiated, and uninformed PLEASE... im begging you to tell me what you THINK im wrong about.

[naynay]

Hell yeah!! I like it!!

[naynay]

Originally posted by: naynay
Ummm, didn't he have a Ignition system put on his car?? That would be a HUGE mistake not to put one on for the soul purpose of not detonating!! MSD makes a programmable ignition system that was designed to retard your timing at a certain rpm(which is determined by the tuner). It also will shut down your ignition if needed! These people need to take the correct precautions before slapping 300hp's to there cars!

Ill just quote this to get my point across!!! Hellooooo!!! Demonsvt i don't even want to here about how Msd ignitions don't work w/ our cars, im just stating that this precaution would most definitely solve this prob....period! Sounds like $350 would have saved him a couple thousand dollars!!! Tell you guys the truth it sounds like exigent knows what hes talking about! This post sounds like a big meeting between big-wig engineers!! To many no it alls! Oh well, im learning alot so have at it (hehehe)!!!!!

[FastCougar]

I know that David knows what he is talking about ... I have met him in person (great guy) and watched him and Craig work on Leo's #68 Speed World Challenge Cougar after Leo blew a half-axles in qualifying at Mosport in Ontario. David is very humble and rarely mentions his spot on the team. That in and of itself should say a lot for his character.

Now, back on track. Until James comes back with pictures and opinions from his new engine builder, we can guess what happened all day long. It is all 100% speculation until James decides to set the record straight by divulging what he knows or has found out from his new engine builder.

[Kinger]

Originally posted by: naynay

Originally posted by: naynay
Ummm, didn't he have a Ignition system put on his car?? That would be a HUGE mistake not to put one on for the soul purpose of not detonating!! MSD makes a programmable ignition system that was designed to retard your timing at a certain rpm(which is determined by the tuner). It also will shut down your ignition if needed! These people need to take the correct precautions before slapping 300hp's to there cars!

Ill just quote this to get my point across!!! Hellooooo!!! Demonsvt i don't even want to here about how Msd ignitions don't work w/ our cars, im just stating that this precaution would most definitely solve this prob....period! Sounds like $350 would have saved him a couple thousand dollars!!!

Please...:rolleyes:

[naynay]

Then you enlighten me on how shutting down the ignition would NOT do the job. Not saying i couldn't have missed something when thinking this one over.:confused:

[MercMobile]

Originally posted by: naynay
Then you enlighten me on how shutting down the ignition would NOT do the job. Not saying i couldn't have missed something when thinking this one over.:confused:

Oh.. I think you missed a lot more than ignition talk..

http://www.fastcougar.com/forums/attachments/projectblown.jpg

[Kinger]

Merc- LOL! :)

Naynay-ignition cut would do the job but geez man a MSD box!?! Also I was errked by the
These people need to take the correct precautions befor slapping 300hp's to there cars! James and SF DID take the right precautions and I think fastcougar and merc's lovely photoshop clearly explain what James probably did. Also a MSD box is far from right, will work but still a piggyback hack.

I know the SF guys as they have been helping me out diagnosing my SC 3L and they are straight up joes with nothing to hide, please don't accuse people of 'slapping' anything on SF related, because they won't let anything leave the shop unless its installed/tuned right.

[FastCougar]

Merc, you kill me! Again, just one of many possibilities that could have caused detonation this severe.

[Cougaritus]

Here is my question: It was stated that on any boosted car when it hits rev limiter and fuel is cut there will be detonation... from what I have been told by Dennis Lugo a mustang performance shop owner all fords cut the fuel.... so in the example of an 03 Cobra that has a blower on it... does that mean that out of the factory floor if you hit rev limiter the car is done??? I don't think so...

[Kaiser]

Ahaa! Someone finally got it! Now ask yourself how superchips can raise the "hardware" rev limiter from Florida?

[naynay]

Ok, yes there probably was more to what happened than just rev-limiter smacking! I also realize the piggyback hacking thing but.....what else is there to do? You must do something, if you ask me (and no your not but ill say it anyways) any bolt on(chip,Venom400,MSD, e-manage etc..) is "hacking". So your saying we cant do any of that?? C-mon, all that i was saying was take the precautions!! Dyno tuning your car is not taking ALL precautions. And im sure ill find out the same thing here in a little bit w/ a new turbo kit. But in my mind i think i've taken good precautions in dealing w/ this same thing (detonation) that James is going through. I mean no disrespect guys im sure he did what he needed to or was TOLD to but was not enough. Just think, if he DID have a MSD box would he have detonated IF he did hit the rev-limiter.....NO. Unless the MSD box failed of course but highly unlikely. Just putting in my 2 cents worth!! Ill ask Carson and see what he has to say, i could be way off and dead wrong. When in doubt ask a professional!!!:biggrin:

[naynay]

Just because you detonate doesnt mean your going to be replacing a motor! Carsons main car that he works on is Mustangs so ill wait to here what he has to say.

[DemonSVT]

Originally posted by: naynay
1. Ok, yes there probably was more to what happened than just rev-limiter smacking!
2. I also realize the piggyback hacking thing but.....what else is there to do?
3. You must do something, if you ask me (and no your not but ill say it anyways) any bolt on(chip,Venom400,MSD, e-manage etc..) is "hacking". So your saying we cant do any of that??
4. C-mon, all that i was saying was take the precautions!! Dyno tuning your car is not taking ALL precautions. And im sure ill find out the same thing here in a little bit w/ a new turbo kit.
5. Just think, if he DID have a MSD box would he have detonated IF he did hit the rev-limiter.....NO. Unless the MSD box failed of course but highly unlikely. Just putting in my 2 cents worth!!
1. No kidding!

2. What else? How about programming the PCM for one. What a good custom chip does.

3. A chip is nothing more than a removable flash program for the PCM. The PCM does not see it any differently then it's original flashed "internal" chip. If it did it WOULD NOT WORK!
Yes anything that "hacks" into the PCM's wires is basically "hacking" the PCM (emanage, s-afc, venom, etc) However they still WORK at what they are doing as long as they are installed and tuned properly.

4. Like what for instance??? What outside of reprogramming the PCM???

5. The MSD DIS 4's rev control is actually worse then the stock PCM. All it does is randomly drop ONE cylinder each firing cycle. Yes that means the other 5 fire normally! (5 lean cylinders with full timing advance!) No timing cut at all, just the PCM's fuel cut.
Sounds to me like $350 wasted if you were buying it for it's rev limiter or "safety" factor. It Definitely would not have saved the engine in anyway! Perhaps the opposite even.
Now it does "boast" a slightly better spark amperage output. This would give a stronger spark kernel that is less likely to get blown out under high boost. (high cylinder pressures)

[DemonSVT]

Originally posted by: exigent
I got owned

1. Hehhehe. Where did i make mention of hex editing? Here's the deal. There is a HARDWARE rev limiter. Understand? As in NOT SOFTWARE DRIVEN. As in... you cant fix it with a reflash or a chip. You must physically disable it.

2. Not only that... but it doesnt matter how high the rev limiter was set. If the system was not designed so that SPARK was cut BEFORE gas you WILL get detonation EVERY time you BUMP THE REV LIMITER.

3. As for the "Leo's Team" slam... I EARNED my position on the team.

4. You probably want to back that up with some sort of evidence as to why you think that is true. All you did is slam me for who i am and what I say

5. What PISSES me off is comments about fords rings. (hows this) "What a crutch"

1. You are clueless! What a completely ignorant statement to make.
For example - How does an aftermarket chip (alone) raise the redline then? Do they come out to your garage and tear out this HARDWARE limiter without your knowledge???
What HARDWARE physically stops (this is hardware you are talking about) the crank from spinning faster.
"Maybe a magical gnome counts the revolutions per minute and then grabs the crankshaft when it reaches the preset limit he was told by Papa Ford Smurf."

BTW - I said "Made it sound like" not you actually "said that" & You most definitely made it "sound like" Street Flight was just "hacking the code" and not doing the programming and tuning properly.

2. The system IS designed exactly like that. The PCM IS programmed to pull timing before fuel cut. I know that normalize chart VERY well.
Matter of fact the XGT1 code (00 SVT) has timing cut starting at 6700rpm and fuel cut at 6950rpm.
The really funny thing is you make all these comments and you don't know ANYTHING about the stock programming at all. ...and damn does it show everytime you post.

3. I'm not touching that with a stick! From what I have seen posted on this site if you worked on any race team in any capacity more than a water boy I would definitely fear for the safety of everyone and every thing involved!!! You seem to have no idea what in the hell you are talking about. Heck name me one post you have done that does. (technical related!) It is possible I may have missed one...

4. That's an easy one. Were you there? Did you see the equipment and software they were using? Did you see the program parameters? We know you don't have a clue about the programming. That's painfully obvious from your posts.
So that makes baseless, unsubstantiated, & uniformed comments. Try looking those words up in a dictionary maybe??? While you are there check out SLANDER when using those types of comments towards a person or business. I surely could have added IGNORANT to them as well.

BTW - I even happen HAVE the standard (91 octane) code that was programmed into his Cougar myself. (I've had it for a couple months actually - but that's another story)
I know exactly how it was programmed and the fact it was most definitely done correctly. (So I guess that get's me off my high horse pally)

Also I do not care who you are. Your comments are still wrong and completely off base regardless.

5. That's between you and Mr. Duttwieler then. Since one person is a well respected engine builder (turbo's at that) and we've all seen your "typical" posts I'll let others decide.
Food for thought. What about the many 250FWHP or better & 7500rpm cars (S/C) running stock rings for 30-50k miles without ANY issues what-so-ever. That's even real life data staring you right in the face.


Also I never meant any of this as an "OWNED" statement. I just blast anyone that makes blanket and/or ignorant statements about things they have no idea about.

[MercMobile]

Demon keep it civil or this thread will end faster than ProjectCougars engine..

[naynay]

5. The MSD DIS 4's rev control is actually worse then the stock PCM. All it does is randomly drop ONE cylinder each firing cycle. Yes that means the other 5 fire normally! (5 lean cylinders with full timing advance!) No timing cut at all, just the PCM's fuel cut.
Sounds to me like $350 wasted if you were buying it for it's rev limiter or "safety" factor. It Definitely would not have saved the engine in anyway! Perhaps the opposite even.
Now it does "boast" a slightly better spark amperage output. This would give a stronger spark kernel that is less likely to get blown out under high boost. (high cylinder pressures)[/quote]

Alright i just got off the phone w/ MSD and called them out on this system(dis 4). Somewhat of what you said is correct, obviously you have "somewhat" read into it but not in great detail. The "waste spark" that Ford has is good but the MSD does not do the waste spark "thing". Multiple sparks is what he called it, then went into detail that it does not spark once twice but three to four times, unlike the stock ignition. Yes it does shut down one cylinder at a time but this is done randomly, meaning when THAT cylinder is at top dead THAT cylinder is shut down. Yes thats really strange(to me) but it does the job it claims it does. Even when those cylinders that are still "hot" the Tech told me it was very weak. So no it does not completely shut the ignition down but it DOES give you the precaution you need! I will agree the chip would be a good way to go but by the time you got the thing made you probably have the same if not more $$ in the chip than the ignition. didn't James have a chip?
Oh, and thanks for being civil!! Greatly appreciated. And please, the info i got about the Dis 4 was from a tech so dont ream me!

:biggrin:

[DemonSVT]

Originally posted by: naynay
1. The "waste spark" that Ford has is good but the MSD does not do the waste spark "thing".
2. Multiple sparks is what he called it, then went into detail that it does not spark once twice but three to four times, unlike the stock ignition.
3. Yes it does shut down one cylinder at a time but this is done randomly, meaning when THAT cylinder is at top dead THAT cylinder is shut down. Yes thats really strange(to me) but it does the job it claims it does. Even when those cylinders that are still "hot" the Tech told me it was very weak.

4. I will agree the chip would be a good way to go but by the time you got the thing made you probably have the same if not more $$ in the chip than the ignition. didn't James have a chip?
1. I agree. However that is just a statement of fact not saying one is better then the other in any way.

2. Beware the random misfire CEL. What does OBD-II do when it see's a plug fired out of time with the PCM's program. Yep. P0300 CEL How does the MSDS not throw misfires constantly? The subsequent sparks are extremely weak compared to the original. (I.E. normally not enough current to trigger the CEL)
Also something you need to realize is that the initial plug firing is at the same time as normal. The MSD box then fires the plug at a exponentially weaker current each firing about 2 to 3 more times. (rpm dependant - I'll get into that shortly) At 600rpm from first spark to final spark (3 total sparks) is about 15 degrees apart in the firing cycle. If the first spark lights the flame front the other sparks do absolutely nothing.

Okay. RPM dependant. The MSD setup requires around 1.5mS to charge and fire & subsequent (weaker) firings take around .7-.8mS. 1 rotation of the crank at 6000rpm = ~10mS Firing 3 times at 6000rpm would be around 130 degrees of crank rotation. (or in other words over 2 cylinders' firing cycles) So bascially the multiple sparks are great at low rpms, so so at mid rpms, but not really possible at high rpms.
Also the stock setup is already DIS and any DIS setup has already obsoleted the RPM factor in coil rolloff compared to a standard induction ignition system. (what the MSD's CD ignition was/is] so much better than)
A typical OEM DIS setup can exceed 10,000rpm before the coil saturation time & firing exceeds the firing window.

3. That does not make sense. It shuts down only "One Random" cylinder per complete cycle. (I.E. the 5 other cylinders run as normal) If it shut down every cylinder at top dead center per cycle the engine would literally shut off. (I.E. no spark to any cylinder) Not only that but the PCM's timing advance has the cylinder firing long before TDC any way. I definitely question this techs answer to that question!
MSD's info say nothing about cutting power to any other cylinder in their soft rev control. It specifically states the way the "soft" rev limiter works is just by cutting one random cylinder. This makes the engine flutter and lets you know you are at the limiter. (I.E. soft) Now what it doesn't tell you is that one cylinder is being flooded with unburnt fuel though.

4. A chip can control every aspect of the PCM. The MSD DIS4 system can not control anything but adding a rev limiter "after the fact" No MSD box is adaptive like the PCM is. It can only react to an outside stimulus meaning it can never control anything just act after the fact.
You do not go about adding a DIS 4 for the rev limiter. Like I stated that would be backwards downgrading. You add it if you think it's boasted spark kernel output is stronger and you are running an engine under heavy boost that can use it. Even then it's not a plug and play installation.

Yes James had a well dyno tuned chip. Maybe it was a flip chip and he put it on the wrong setting??? Too many factors in his control to know or to blindly blame Street Flight's tuning and that's what set me off to begin with. Baseless & clueless accusations! (sorry that's another post, back to the MSD DIS setup)

Okay there is a fair overview of the DIS 4 vs stock PCM. The stock PCM is far superior is every way with the one exception of MSD's boasted stronger spark output. (multiple sparks on a DIS are really redundant and have been known to throw CEL's {I.E. limp mode!} so that's not an advantage)

[naynay]

Ok, good stuff there....thanks!! And no i didnt buy it for just the rev limiter. I was having problems burning all the fuel that i was dumping in the poor motor. It was actually stutter-stepping until i put the ignition on.

[DanN]

[i]Originally posted by: Kinger its been proven time and time again with SC'ed SVT contours which in theory should be less reliable because of the high CR.

true higher pressures with SVT but the SVT pistons themselves have the thicker crowns and may be a bit stronger..just a thought, I agree that it is unlikely just the extra 2psi was the problem..

Another comment/thought..I think (but not sure) SVT uses different rings?? Maybe this could explain the fact that Dutweiller liked them (SVT rings) but SF does not (stock rings)..looking at 2 different parts??

[HangTime]

Hello??? Did anyone see my post a couple of threads ago? :rolleyes:

For all the high tech mumbo-jumbo and mudslinging that has been flying around, the simplest answer is still that his stock Ford returnless fuel pump (a well documented POS) bit the dust on him causing a lean condition that eventually blew up his forced induction engine.

By the way, I too help out with Leo's car on my weekends. Let the flaming commence... :cover:

[DemonSVT]

HangTime -

That too is a definite possibility and goes right along with my statements that blindly blaming the tuning job done is completely wrong and uncalled for.

I agree it's well known the stock fuel socks on the returnless pumps have been known to restrict fuel flow. It does seem Cougars are more susceptible to this as well. (maybe a later sock filter change?)
The fuel pump itself is actually a good unit, but when starved for fuel can overheat, cavitate and fail.

[ChrisHightower]

Sorry I missed out on this thread. I knew James' motor was blown, but did we actually find out the REAL reason?

As for the tech'ing, it looks like Demon mopped up pretty well the points I would have jumped in on. He doesn't know much, but he's pretty good with cars and stuff ;)

[dv6cougar]

Originally posted by: MercMobile
Demon keep it civil or this thread will end faster than ProjectCougars engine..

:rofl:


and this has been a most excellent read!! Lots of good info on turbo's! I think i'l reread this ;)

[Ness1216]

[i]He doesn't know much, but he's pretty good with cars and stuff ;)


heh wonder if he saw that.