Cap or Optima?

[Crispy]

okay I need to do something about my dimming lights situation... I can't afford to replace an alternator on my own somewhere down the near future... my prior system was Two MTX 6000 subs and a 300 watt amp from Premier.. the lights and LCDs dimmed with each bass hit at a decent volume and I have a Optima Yellow Top under the hood..

Currently the system was taken out and it will be reconfigured again due to adding more equipment.. which will be when finished

3 - MTX Twelve inch 6000 Subs
1 - Premier 300 watt amp
1 - Premier 400 watt amp


Question is this... I am considering adding ONE of the following but not both....

CAP or Yellow Optima Battery in the trunk

which would be better...? if I was at a show with my car prior I could drain the Optima dead within 3 hours... I would like to extend that time of course as take some added load off the alternator... please advice... Also I don't know what size Cap to look at getting if I went that route...

thanks in advance..

[tad]

crispy do this..
play a long bass note
if the lights only dim at the start and then come back by the end of the note
then you need a cap
if they stay dim the whole time.. it's your alt or something more serious

[Crispy]

they dim to the absolute beat... like totally to it... once the bass hit or beat is over or it switches to a less bassy part of the song the LCD and lights are bright.... so having said that your recommendation is a CAP? also what size? what features do I need to keep in mind when looking at one? I know ABSOLUTELY nothing about a Cap...

[tad]

not
i'm talking about a bass note that lasts for say 5 seconds
do they stay dim the entire 5 seconds, or just at first?
if they only dim at first, you need a cap
because caps supply power very fast
that is why people use them so much

[blast]

"I'm talking about a bass note that lasts for say 5 seconds
do they stay dim the entire 5 seconds, or just at first?
if they only dim at first, you need a cap
because caps supply power very fast
that is why people use them so much"

????? If the cap supply the energy or the power to the amplifier in the beginning of a beat, that cap needs to get the same energy from somewhere else? Correct. then lets trace it down. the cap get the energy from the battery that is low in voltage already now the battery got to perform the double duty. supply the power to all the components then energize the cap that is low in voltage plus the amp that needs all the current while the battery is trying to fill up the cap, the end result Light will steel dim. now lets look at a second battery: the battery will be connected to an Isolator the isolator will rob the power from the alternator that is having a hard time to charge the first battery to begin with. so the First thing you should do upgrade all the wiring, from alternator to the battery then all the way back to the amps, and use the 1/0 gauge wire, if you would like to see some results. also ground the battery with same size wire. Then use the largest wire gauge that your amplifiers will except, and if your light's will still dim then safe the money to buy a good high output alternator. Just remember the high output alternator usually do not produce any peak voltage till the motor is refed up somewhere in 2500 - 3500 RPM, And what ever you do do not use the underdrive pulleys or you' will back at square one. "dimmed lights".

the second battery should only be used for engine off time, while listening to audio system for a long periods of time. 1 1.000.000 µf cap is recommended for every five hundred watts. Crispy, you have stated that you have the following.
1 - Premier 300 watt amp
1 - Premier 400 watt amp
if you absolutely will use a cap get like the phoenix gold power cap or Helix Power Caps
hope this helps. Till next time peace.........

[Ziggo]

Crispy,

Get a cap for your system because it is the only option that will help out the dimming problem (short of replacing/rewinding the alternator, which you don't want to do). I have 800W on a stock motorcraft battery (recharged twice! lol, unrelated...) and I never get dimming. I'm using an RF 1 farad cap.

However, it seems from your post you're also looking to extend play time while the engine isn't running. In that case, you should get an additional Optima. The cap does not provide additional power to your system.

Check out this link. (http://www.eatel.net/~amptech/elecdisc/caraudio.htm) It's very informative. Goodluck!

[Crispy]

thank you so much... looks like it's time to do some Cap shopping... :)

[tad]

read what keane says in this thread..
here (http://www.fastcougar.com/forums/messageview.cfm?catid=13&threadid=54271&highlight_key=y&keyword1=cap)

[Crispy]

thanks to all of you... I'm gonna try a cap first seeing as how my alternator is not even a year old... if that does not help signifigantly I will look into upgrading more shiz... :)

[blast]

Before you spend on a cap look here:)=~~ http://www.termpro.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=6;t=000784 See if this looks anything familliar to you...

[99CouGSweetRide]

I need a cap too, I spent $130 on an Optima Yellow Top battery thinking it would solve my dimming problems. I notice only a very slight difference. The lights will still dim, but come back on right away (when the low note is done). It's weird considering I only have 1 sub and a 500W amp.
Try The Zeb (http://www.thezeb.com), that's where I'm gonna buy my cap, they got some pretty good prices.

Mike

[blast]

Are you people are blind? a cap will not solve the problem with dimming lights. Read the post above that i have gib\vern a link to, matter of fact if you are to lazy to click on it..... Here what it states: "well the main issue here is the problem with my lights dimming ..
i have the pheonix gold power core 15 ferad cap .. and it aint workin." again here is a link http://www.termpro.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=6;t=000784. Either copy and paste it in a browser or click on a link above.

[99CouGSweetRide]

blast I just got a new alternator and the Optima less than a month ago. I wired my entire system myself using 4 guage wire AND installed the battery myself, so I am SURE that everything is clamped down tightly and nothing is interfering with anything. I have the amp wire and the patch cables on opposite sides of the car..everything is fine. I need a cap.

Mike

[blast]

99CouGSweetRide, you mentioned a new alternator? is it factory or aftermarket one? and why would you use a 4 guage wire instead off the 1/0 guage wire.

[99CouGSweetRide]

it is a rebuilt alternator. And I used 4 guage wire because that's what Kicker recommended.

Mike

[blast]

how much amperage are you pulling, how many watts?

[99CouGSweetRide]

the amp is 500W but it was tested to go as high as 653

[blast]

Keane you are correct about the power cable being suitable for the power that 99CouGSweetRideis using but he is using it on a stock alternator, now I am not trying to proof anything, except that the stock alternator can not provide enough amperage for the amplifier, along with other accessories. That's just not enough, and I really don't think the cap will stop the lights from flashing. Do you?

[Ziggo]

blast, do you have an aftermarket alternator? If you do, that's great. Not too many can afford that luxury.

A capacitor does have a function. It lessens the strain on your alternator by evening out voltage spikes. For a ~500W system with a healthy alternator (99CouG's), it will help with the dimming.

Those earlier testimonials you linked to about people with 15 F caps still getting problems....there's something really wrong with their electrical system. Either the components aren't functioning properly or they are not suited for the application. Don't think it applies for everyone.

[99CouGSweetRide]

plus, the cougar's alternator was designed to put out enough power to handle an aftermarket electrical modification, such as a stereo system or a bunch of neons. I'm gonna order a 1F cap very soon cuz I found a decent price, so I'll let you all know if it really makes a difference or not.

Mike

[Crispy]

same here... I just bought a 1 Farad Cap... I totally believe that it will make a difference.... if I truely had alternator problems I would see some dimming issues now that my system is out of my car...

[blast]

Originally posted by: Ziggo
blast, do you have an aftermarket alternator? If you do, that's great. Not too many can afford that luxury.
A capacitor does have a function. It lessens the strain on your alternator by evening out voltage spikes. For a ~500W system with a healthy alternator (99CouG's), it will help with the dimming.

Those earlier testimonials you linked to about people with 15 F caps still getting problems....there's something really wrong with their electrical system. Either the components aren't functioning properly or they are not suited for the application. Don't think it applies for everyone.

Thats funny you mention that, the average cap goes from anywhere 100 - 150 bucks from the web or ebay, locally the cap lets see @ best buy or Circuit City will set you back around 170 - 200 dollars, now how much is the alternator last time I bought one was 150 dollars that is for the hight ouput one. So my question is why beet around the bush and spend on something that soes not do anything except take the power away instead of giving it?

[99CouGSweetRide]

The cap I'm buying costs $60.00 on the web, which is like what, almost $75+ less than the 1/0 guage wiring kit?

Mike

[Ziggo]

I bet that price doesn't include install, does it? Sure you can do it yourself, but it's hardly worth it if you have a perfectly healthy alternator and a proper system. If you really want to know how hard an alternator install is on a cougar, here (http://domestic-compacts.com/alternator_howto.html) you go.

What are you trying to prove here, blast? That capacitors are useless?

Stop skipping over other people's posts and try to comprehend the situation. You're not helping anyone out.

Btw, my brand new Rockford Fosgate 1F cap only cost me $40.

[tad]

i think what needs to be noted is that we are trying to figure out what the problem is without spending money
our stock alternators should be fine pushing that amp
capacitors are just like bandages that temporarily fix a problem
granted.. the capacitor may stop the lights from dimming, but won't necessarily solve the problem
keane is pushing way more with the stock alternator
have you tried regrounding your battery?
ever look and see how big the wire is that grounds our battery?
there are other things to try and to look at before having to buy a cap/new alternator
find out what's wrong, then buy what you actually need to fix it
this is what we are trying to do.. find out what's wrong

[99CouGSweetRide]

granted.. the capacitor may stop the lights from dimming, but won't necessarily solve the problem

now i'm really confused. I thought this whole post was about fixing the dimming lights. You're saying that even though the lights won't dim anymore, harm can still be done? Now I'm not really into competition audio or anything like that, but those are the guys who get higher output alternators and whatnot right? Our alternators should be enough to power a single or even 2 amps, and the caps may or may not fix the dimming lights (in my case I imagine it would, my system's not too powerful). It all really depends on your setup I guess. Either go all out with a $5000 system, and get a new high output alternator for about $700 (including install), or get something simple: optima battery, cap, 500-1000W system, and hopefully u should be fine. If not, better get your electrical system checked out.

Mike

[tad]

what i'm saying is.. a capacitor may stop the lights from dimming.. if that's all you want.. fine
but there is obviously something wrong
what a capacitor can and sometimes will do is just hide the real problem
like i said before.. a temporary bandage for the problem
there is something wrong with her charging system.. alternator.. whatever..
instead of fixing what's wrong, don't just add something that will hide the problem
i'm not claiming to be an expert on this.. but i've researched this topic several times and asked several different experts several times, and that is what i've concluded
i hope keane can back me up.. or craig or puck.. or someone with a bit more experience than i

[blast]

Ziggo I am not trying to waste any one's money, that is the whole thing, matter of fact I have tried to show why spending on cap will not solve the problem with flashing light's. meaning saving $$$.

Keane - you have stated that you are running 5 amplifiers, and since they are bridged you do not run them at full current draw, why not? the stock alternator can not provide juice? or the lights flash so badly. or you gonna come back with thats too loud? So why bother having all the amps. You will also probably response with headroom and clarity right. That means those 5 amplifiers require proper current. Is that why you are not running them at full capacity?
you also have tried to prove that I am wasting people money, and giving the bad sugestions on upgrades on better wiring and fancy alternators and such. Question for you, when you do turn up the power and use a little bit more current then 100 amperes on you're 5 bridged amps do your light flash? I bet thay do. I understand you're stock FoMoCo alternator can not and will not provide the proper current. do you have a cap? how many caps do you have. Also what kind of amplifiers are they? In your signature you have Zapco wich is a top noth amplifier and drains a lot of cuurent. so why bother using something that can not be utilized to the fullest potential? meaning you got great amps but you can not turn them up....

As far as other post goes, everything I have ever read about caps, they have never solved anything in the system especially stopping the lights from dimming. and Tad that's all I was trying to say from the get go. there is another problem in car and the caps may temporarily solve it but will not resolve it. The light's will flash or dim.

OK final note. All you guys that have purchased the caps or about to, please let me know if they will stop the light flash and provide the proper current, to all the amps. and I will buy some. Till then no thanks, you will not find one in my car.
I rather stick with over sized wiring like 1/0 gauge and a higher output alternator, and at least enjoy my original invstment components and such, and not wasting hard earned cash on something that does absolutely nothing.

[tad]

Keane :bowdown:

[blast]

First of all Keane, I am not challenging anyone at all I simply state what I know, which according to you is nothing, you state that "Get their butts into a car with two 12" subwoofers powered by 1300 watts and show them that you can have mind-numbing volume AND have it sound clear from 20Hz to 20,000Hz as if you were in the front row of the concert, whether it's the Boston Symphony or the drum & bugle corps national championships or Bela Fleck & the Flecktones or POD. The point is to show that there's more to car audio than just frequencies below 160Hz"
Now there is no way in hell and I dont care if you state, challenge or not, You also state that you have no cap so why bother recommending one to someone who does not need one either?
you also state in the begging of a song heavy bass note get cap? thats simply BS. Also you keep on stating, " know how much current my system can potentially draw and the power & ground cables were sized appropriately to support that current draw. " So what are you trying to say? oh hang on I got turn the volume down I am gonna draw to much current, well that is another BS.
you can not determine current by the knob on the radio. But then again you are the pro and you thing I am chalnging you.
If you state I should not give anyone advise thats fine, but you still have not proven squat to me why Crispy should use a cap and yet you state you do not have one. Oh I am sorry you are not into BOOM - BOOM, thats fine but you are into the Boston Symphony that will have lower yes lower frequencies than any other boom tracks out there. so Keane, if I am so full of BS why are you not using the caps? yet you recommend them to everyone else, why are you suggesting to waste other people money I thing you mentioned that to me earlier in the thread.
Any way Keane, you are so correct in order to listen to quality music you have to have good components
and good wiring that supplies all the current to them, But you are correct I guess you do know when your 5 zapco amps have reached the maximum current and you seem to know exactly where that is, and got to turn it down, whether you feel challenged or not that is simply BS. but I still disagree to the very first comment in this thread, and I still state that the caps do not do anything at all for the system you have proven that with you're system. Is that what you mean by a challenge. oh well Yes people listen to the great Keane,
By the caps the more the marrier besides it is almost Christmas and Keane does not want to disappoint you. spend all your hard earned $$$ Get the caps and once you put them on, and it will solve all your problems please let me know...... till then I will be LOL.

[blast]

Keane - I got that you do not have that problem, either do I. Why because like you have posted earlier you and I have the proper wiring done, Correct. do we agree on that point? and we are debuting something there is no point to it. Meaning, I believe that there are other solution to fix a problem with dimming light, but not with a cap. then do advice, on what you preach give proper advice and suggest on how solve the problem with out using a cap. Like the proper wire gauge per length and proper grounding, the battery and the extra ground on the alternator. Little stuff like that will fix the problem from light dimming, do you agree at least on that?



Keane do not get upset ok, this is not a challenge this is something for you to read, and get educated on, I have read the FAQ I would like for you to read this, Please

Matter of fact instead of placing the link I will post the whole thing up here. The source is:
http://pub51.ezboard.com/fcaraudioknowledgefrm7.showMessage?topicID=33.topi c Yes I am quoting someone else again.
and Keane if you can prove provide for me to read or experiment, I will gladly apologies to you, for that challenge I have started. read on.



" FAQ-CAPS, the Truth about Caps & Dogs
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
After studying a little history on large 1 Farad capacitors in car audio, you'd be amazed that they even sell at all. How useful are they? What do they really do? Will a Cap 'improve' my sound quality? Will it Prevent my lights from dimming? Will it audibly affect my audio system in any way?

Before you get the truth to any of the above questions, chances are, you've probably spent $100 or more on one of these devices. However, let's study a little history regarding this issue.

A long time ago, in a land far away, 2 elves...Ok, Richard Clark & Wayne Harris (Carsound magazine and the inventor of DB Drag, respectively) separately came up with a solution to preventing their lights from dimming.

WHO WERE THESE GUYZ?

As you may know, Richard Clark is one of the founders of autosound2000 Tech Briefs, Carsound magazine, and a published author of the industry of mobile electronics. In SQ competitions, he posted a record of 1234 1st place finishes, and only ended up NOT 1st in his first event. I've heard that he had minor system problems, but judging by his record, he must have corrected it. (evidently, he needed a Capacitor )

Wayne Harris was previously a leader at Rockford Fosgate in their development. Later, in his free time, he created the organization we call DB DRAG. Wayne was the first SQ World Champion from the organization we know as IASCA (International AutoSound Challenge Association).

Both of these gurus are both legends, and considered the leading experts in the field. During their competition days, both guyz came up with a way to assist in the prevention of voltage drops. In SQ competitions, the look of your system is actually more important than the sound, and having your lights NOT dim under high playing levels is a competitive advantage.

As you may know, an amplifiers is made up a battery of little capacitors, resistors, etc. What has been common engineering knowledge is that capacitors store energy, and more or bigger ones assist in balancing the power supply.

Wayne came up with the idea of putting several dozen 'little' (approx 100uF) capacitors on a circuit board to 'extend' the power supplies storage. At about the same time, or shortly afterward, Richard came up with the idea of one huge mondo capacitor (I believe it was 800,000uF or 0.8F) to do the job.

Eventually, Richard won. The large cylindrical tubes won over the complicated 48 caps strapped to a circuit board. However, what did this really accomplish? Let's start here:

WHAT IS A CAPACITOR?

Basically, capacitors are an energy storage device. Large, 1 Farad or more
capacitors store energy (electrons) between their plates. Capacitors differ
from batteries because batteries store energy in the form of chemical
energy--and rely on acid as the place of storage.

WHY DO PEOPLE BUY CAPACITORS?

The number 1 reason would have to be because their lights dim when their
system is playing HARD. In car audio, we are told that a capacitor is
designed to prevent the voltage drop associated with your lights dimming.
The number2 reason is that it is rumored to 'improve' sound quality or
'stiffen' the power supply/source.

WHY DO MY LIGHTS DIM?

Headlights brightness is in direct proportion to the source voltage. For
instance, if your car is running, system voltage is ~12.5 -14.4 VOLTS. Your
lights will be much brighter than when your car is turned off--where battery
voltage is ~12V. Most car alternators put out between 75 to 120 amps of <------ What where you saing about current Kean
current. When this current draw threshold of the charging system is
exceeded, <u>system voltage will drop as power demands are now shared by the
alternator and the storage devices (battery & cap)</u>. We are using battery
reserves beyond this point until the demand lessens Did we learned anything at all The challenged one.

When playing your system really hard. Your lights dim because your
alternator can't keep up it's charging voltage (around 13.8V) and therefore,
demand exceeds output. When this happens, your electronic devices are
dipping into the power storage of the battery. Since the battery stores
power at ~ 12-12.5V, there is a 1.3 to 1.8V drop in voltage available. This
in turn is why your lights dim down."

I thing you are full of BS. And your light do flash don't they? oops I forgot you know the max current you're electrical system is designed for, Right? BS...?
How about that Keane - Am I still BS and not knowing what I am stating

Read on

HOW MUCH POWER DOES A CAPACITOR STORE?

1 Farad = 100 joules or 100W/second
850cca battery = ~2,200,000 farads

For storage purposes, you'd need ~2,200 1 Farad capacitors to equal the energy of your battery.

Due to its impedence (ESR & ESL), a cap's energy is only 50% available. What's worse, is that in order for a 1 Farad cap to discharge, first the alternator output must have maxed out, and the voltage must have dropped around 1.5 volts. But I thought a cap was supposed to prevent that (voltage drop)!!!!!????? Yep, you got the point.


IF A BATTERY = 2,200 CAPS, THEN WHY BUY A (PUNY) CAP?

My question exactly. Marketing is the reason why people buy caps. In many cases, upgrading wiring will help your system get the maximum transfer of current. Once that has been reached, adding a capacitor may have a minor effect on your system. 50W over the course of a second is not a lot of power considering an amplifier may draw 2000W to put out 1400 watts. Let's look at the situation from a resources standpoint.

Alternator 80 amps
Car accessories (minus stereo) 40 amps
Car Audio system (DRAWS ) ~200 amps AT FULL OUTPUT.

In this case, you have 240 amps of draw, but only 80 amps of current from the alternator. In your case, you need 160 amps x 12 volts or or let's say 1920 watts of energy. Since a cap stores 50W, how much of a difference do you think it's going to make? <u>A cap is a peashooter</u>, and we need a Howitzer 150 calibre cannon.

Also, Once a cap is discharged, where does it get it's power from? The alternator, which is already overloaded. Once a cap is discharged, it's worthless. Like SWEZ says, “..The cap already shot its wad, an does limp til recharged…” I’m not so certain I will allow him to babysit my kids, but you get the drift.
Did I not state that way in the begging?

SO, WHAT IS A CAPACITOR GOOD FOR? Kean?


1. Audio Jewelry- impress chicks with large cylindrical shiny thingy
2. Extra weight in winter time
3. A very POOR... BUT expensive distribution block
4. A projectile in the event of a crash
5. Rolling pin--for cooking purposes
6. A neat thing to tell your friend, "..Hey man, lick the top of this...


Please do not try # 6. New hairstyles are always refreshing, but if you are wearing railroad tracks across your teeth, you might have one big filling after it’s over.

<u>HOW CAN CAPACITORS IMPROVE SOUND QUALITY?</u>

They can't. Sound quality is not dependant upon the presence of large bulky 1 Farad capacitors. How many 1 Farad Capacitors do you think the Boston Pops, Aerosmith, or Snoop dog use in the recording studio?

IN A NUTSHELL.......

When Richard, our fearless inventor, became World renown for winning every competition under the sun, people began copying what he did. Soon, every 'serious' competitor had a 'stiffening' capacitor--not to be confused with the 'loosening' capacitor.

WHY?

In the late 80s, people began sticking out their tongue when dunking the basketball because Michael Jordan did. Did sticking out your tongue improve your dunking ability? Same here with adding a capacitor to your electrical system.

STILL A GLUTTON FOR MORE PUNISHMENT?

Here's the Original Cap Debate.

www.carsound.com/ubb/Arch...00307.html

Phoenix Gold's marketing guru had just posted information on how their Powercore (basically the Alumapro CAP15 in a Phoenix shell) had both stabilized their voltage and improved the sound quality. Richard called him on it (all in another post) and the marketing geek was unable to quantify any of the conditions that resulted in the voltage being HELD at 14.2V and the 'improved' sound quality.

Please do not read every stinking post as valid. There are a lot of people that have had the efficacy of capacitors inbred to their minds, and were not (and still not) convinced in the futility of a 1 Farad storage device.

In a final note, Richard relayed a quote regarding battcaps ( www.battcap.net ) as, "..The audio industry is the only place i know of where you can publish specs that show your product is useless and still be able to sell them------and whats worse is that technically ignorant people will argue against the math!!!!!!!..............RC.." when referring to the product. This also relates to most digital readout capacitors, and I wish my Archie Bunker skills could have said it better myself. "

End of argument it is <u>pointless</u> Kean, unless you can provide facts, that caps are good for the audio systems

[blast]

yup you are all knowledge of course and you have not proven that the caps help the light dimming, case closed.

[Lukydogg]

Damn...where have I been.....:slap:

[Ziggo]

Originally posted by: Keane

the ESR of a 1 Farad capacitor is much lower than that of a battery. The low ESR value is what enables the capacitor to respond to the short duration demand for current faster than either a battery or a voltage regulator on an alternator.

[blast]

Ziggo, I understand the ESR, but the thing is, if the alternator is on the dry it has a very difficult time to charge the battery and the cap at the same time, granted the cap might justify at the beginning of a truck but will not able to stay with the amp no matter how low the ESR are, their is no more. The alternator is having a hell of time just to stay with the battery, accessories. well the cap, is just in a way oh and the lights will steel deem any way.

welcome aboard Lukydogg.

[Lukydogg]

Like it matters- I have not had a problem with dimming lately since I replaced my 8awg wires with 2 & 4awg, and got another RF 1.f cap, because it was free.. BUT im only running 1 250watt amp and 2 450watt IMPP's- BUT any system modification will cause light dimming if not wired to compensate the current draw, mine used to get below 10 volts...Since the wire upgrade I keep it a reasonble 13 volts- and 15 when not in use. I still have the factory original alternator and a 1 year old cheap replacement battery.

[blast]

I thank you for that Lukydogg

[blast]

Keane man, second paragraph hit it straight on the nail, Thank you for that.....
and no I am not trying to turn this forum in to Carsound.
All I was trying to say, or state is, I have never had any luck with caps and simply, lost believe in them, there are other ways to solve the situation just like Tad stated earlier.
and I was not trying to beat you up, but was looking for that answer instead. and you have finally provided. I guess I was looking for that explanation on the overload part on the electrical system. <u>why a cap, is a waste of time.</u>

[blast]

So am I

[GrandMasterKhan]

yo i heard BATCAPs where waaayyy better than a 1farad cap.

a batcap on ebay (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1945052215)