View Full Version : How much HP and Torque can you get from an after market MAF?
pgtatx
03-02-2002, 02:56 PM
Better utilized as a later mod calibrated for larger injectors...
LaserRedCoug
03-02-2002, 03:45 PM
I'm also interested in how much hp will it gain.
Does anyone have one w/o major engine mods that they've seen improvements???
The only thing I may end up doing is an underdrive pulley, svt throttle body, and svt uim.
Anyone seen any improvements with a 75mm maf?
THanks!
Rob
So if I moved to 19# injectors and MAF What would I get? Or would it take more than that?
Furious1
03-02-2002, 10:18 PM
I have the 19lb injectors with a calibrated 75mm MAF and no CEL. Car moves pretty good right now and no headers/high flow cat. I will be dynoing this spring as is now on mods. You guys should be all set with just a MAF for the a/f ratio on the 19lb inj. but there are some guys with the KKM intakes that have CEL's. This is just a coincidence right now. I have the Injen and no CEL. We compared calibration sheets and on one of the guys with the KKM his MAF calibration was even better than mine, yet he's got a CEL. My other friend lost his cal sheet but we plugged in the OBDII and he's getting rich condition. I have no problems whatsoever. The only difference between us two is intakes, so I don't know if that's it. You guys can get a MAF with an optomizer and calibrate it yourselves, or just get an SAFC to tune the a/f ratio. Either way, if you're planning on suppin up the power a little or a lot, I strongly recommend this (MAF/Injectors) along with the SVT stuff. All together my car is much faster than stock. I will post dyno results when I get them (2-3 months). Do realize this will be for all my mods at once (see sig).
LaserRedCoug
03-02-2002, 10:47 PM
Would this be a useful mod with the stock injectors?
Draxas
03-03-2002, 03:20 AM
Trevo Cole (FastCougar) is the only person I know of that has had success running the Pro-M 75mm MAF on a Cougar that only had intake and exhaust along with stock injectors. If it is possible to calibrate the 75mm MAF to use stock 17lb injectors, then i dont see why it wouldnt help. I still suggest at least doing a simple intake filter and a cat back exhaust BEFORE spending te $200-300 on an aftermarket MAF......
Nikolas
exigent
03-03-2002, 02:27 PM
The stock maf can flow about 700 cfm. Our engine at 100% VE flows just over 300cfm. So... to respond truthfully. NONE.
ANY gains are made buy the MAF lying to the computer in order to enrichen the mixture. A proposistion that of course works... but not up to 100%. Just get yourself a Lincoln LS maf(it has only HALF the sample tube of ours so it does represent less restriction) and some 19lb injectors with an AFC and you will REALLY see some power.
Anyone that tells you a maf will make hp is smoking some really good stuff :) Plus... god forbid you ever add mods after that... a maf has a "function" wich is placed into the computer. ANY (yes... pay attention) maf will work on any engine as long as the EEC has the function from that MAF in it memory. Buy replacing that maf with one with a diffrent function... you are destroying the fuel calculations accuracy which gives us a big part of our economy and power. Do it right... my example is used (esentially... not 100% accurate) on the fastest cougar in existence :-)
Furious1
03-03-2002, 04:26 PM
Yeah, just wanted to add that the only advantage an aftermarket MAF would have over our stock MAF's would be less turbulence due to the middle bar running down the middle of our stock MAF's. However, even if you can calibrate an aftermarket MAF for our stock 17lb injectors, you would probably not feel anything in terms of power. It takes a good 5-10HP for our "butt" dyno to register and doing this probably wouldn't even add any HP. Our stock MAF's can handle much more flow than what the Duratec needs, even modded. Unless you're switching injectors, I would spend my $$$ elsewhere.
How much are Injectors and what kind are they?
Furious1
03-03-2002, 04:38 PM
They are the 19lb SVT injectors for the 2.5 SVT Duratec. You can get them for about $35 each (IIRC, could be more) from Downs Ford or just buy the whole LIM from BAT which come with the injectors for about $280 (if there's any left).
Draxas
03-03-2002, 04:55 PM
I an get you a full set of 19lb fuel injectors (if you have a return fuel system)....PM me if you need them.
Once we get our store up over at DuratecPerformance.com we will be selling 19lb and 24lb injectors for use in both return and return-less fuel systems. We will also try to get S-AFCs for everyone as well, but that will be more difficult for us, because A'PEXi only sells directly to businesses that have a physical location and a show room....so we have to try to go through one of their already existing retailers. Unless we can offer the AFCs for the same price as people are getting them from GroupBuyCenter.com for, then we wont sell them.
David,
who has the fastest Cougar? just curious..... I will have to do some testing then. I had planned on getting an 80mm MAF off another Ford car at the same time i got the AFC......maybe i should do some dyno testing both for my sake and for future modders....just so everyone can see what can or cannot be gained from using the stock MAF or a larger OEM MAF.......considering you can get an 80mm MAF for $50 from Car-Part.com Im not bothered with spending a little of my own money to increase the knowledge of the group.....
Nikolas
What kind of advantage would I get from getting the SVT LIM, MAF, and 19lb injectors with out a SVT UIM anf TB?
exigent
03-04-2002, 01:15 AM
Chezterr
dude.. incognito... i didnt even know it was you. Anyways... Like i said... our maf will flow about 700cfm no problem. If you calculate out 2.5L x rpm and all that jazz it comes out to 300cfm or so assuming 100% volumetric effeciency. Now... unless you are running 15psi of boost id spend my money elsewhere. It should be obvious that adding a larger maf just for the sake of adding a larger maf is quite silly. Heck.. you still have a 53 or 60mm throttle body rite???? It doesnt matter how big a maf you have then does it? The advantage comes from not having the turbulence of the post running through the entire middle of the flow is ALL you will gain. That is why the LS maf is a good bet. Its the same size and the "function" should be near identical to ours... actually... its for a 3.0 so it will run a touch rich when combined with 19lb injectors.... a touch LEAN with 17's id guess.... heck.. it may just ballence out with 17's. Either way.... its a good bet. Our stock program is so damn lean its a wonder our valves dont burn out strait away....
Oh... and my money is on Leo having the fastest cougar :-) At cougarfest he made the eliminators burnout look fairly lame :-)
Oh.. and DONT cut the post out of your maf.... yes i know i know.... but ive heard of people doing it and i dont want any of you getting any crazy ideas. Its there for a very good reason in our maf. The LS maf is calibrated specificaly to NOT have the whole post there... the whole design is dependent on the calibration and the temp of the wires and blah blah blah blah blah... people LOTS smarter then us have done the math for us. Id bet you could get an LS maf for realy cheap.
pgtatx
03-04-2002, 01:17 AM
Trevo Cole (FastCougar) is the only person I know of that has had success running the Pro-M 75mm MAF on a Cougar that only had intake and exhaust along with stock injectors.
Hey I'm using stock injectors and a 75mm MAF...ANd I have the usual Intake, and exhaust mods...nothing too special...YET ;)
Draxas
03-04-2002, 01:22 PM
Jeremy,
True, but you also were able to tune for it with the Optimizer right.... ;)
When we get some R&D money at DuratecPerformance.com I want to run some tests on my Cougar. They will be the following:
1) S-AFC with stock MAF and Stock Injectors
2) S-AFC with 75mm MAF and Stock injectors
3) S-AFC with 75mm MAF and 19lb injectors
4) S-AFC with 80mm Ford OEM MAf and 19lb injectors
Once we get dyno results on all of these configurations, then everyone will know which combination is best. But like I said, we have to wait for our R&D account to grow.... ;)
Nikolas
Just a few thoughts on the Pro-M 75mm on an SVT (given this car has #19 injectors). For what its worth..
1) Butt dyno - as a single mod I felt the MAF gave more noticable kick than either K&N filter or Bassani catback alone (of course it was added after those 2 mods so probably benefited from them). Noticably better throttle response too. And though "Butt dynos" are notoriously wrong, I do not smoke crack..
2) Dynojet dyno - I compared back to back 2 intake setups - stock airbox/filter/MAF vs K&N filter/custom airbox/75mm MAF - the later was stronger by 12 HP@ the wheels (11 HP with KKM instead of K&N). I have not seen a KKM filter gain more than 5 HP by itself and the airbox should not help under dyno conditions with the hood open. "Apparent" gain of the 75mm MAF then maybe 6FWHP (on my car with my mods). Not bad for $175 (price shipped from Muscle Motors).
3) Why is it better, well NOT because its bigger as 70mm should be enough (even though its really more like 58mm after subtracting the 12mm center piller). That pillar (present to reduce induction noise by "echo" feedback) causes turbulence right at the sensor wire. Turbulence causes flux in the airflow sensor reading which is sent to the computer. Flux is not optimal for performance. The Pro-M has no such pillar and is designed to reduce turbulence at the sensor. Also, the Pro-M is custom calibrated for your aftermarket filter. The stock meter is calibrated for the stock filter and may not get full benifit from an upgraded filter unless it is recalibrated (which could be done with S-AFC or optimizer also).
Only downside was an increase in induction noise that was quieted down with the custom airbox. Not sure what the deal is with 17 lb injectors though, if it can be calibreated for them or not? But on SVT it works.
Derk2000
03-04-2002, 03:31 PM
I'll be dyno-ing my SVT within a few weeks hopefully. I'll do a before and after w/ the MAF.
I had posted a reply earlier from the company that makes the Pro-Flo MAF about the use of 17lb injectors. I received two responses from them and both of them said that they DO calibrate Pro-Flow MAF's for 17lb injectors. Basically the guys from Pro-flo said that if you send data in requesting a MAF calibrated for 17lb injectors then that is what they do. I don't know what else to say, this comes directly from the manufacturer.
Draxas
03-04-2002, 06:11 PM
Its good to see some of the SVT guys helping us out....
Ive never doubted the gains of the MAF. People say that the stock MAF should be able to handle up to XXX amount of HorsePower or flow.....Im cool with that... But it has been proven time and again that by upgrading the MAF to the 75mm one, people get HP gains.....I dont know why they do, they just do. I dont know why people have to come on here and use the same argument over and over again that upgrading to the larger MAF is pointless, when it has been proven time and again at the track and on the dyno to show gains.....
Granted, you dont want to upgrade the MAF if all you have is a KKM. I would wait until you have KKM, larger TB, exhaust, etc......
Nikolas
Furious1
03-04-2002, 08:18 PM
I felt a gain but I also have the injectors.
As far as a MAF by itself, I would imagine any gains besides what having the middle bar removed gives you will come from calibration making the a/f ratio better?
exigent
03-06-2002, 02:15 AM
Why is it better, well NOT because its bigger as 70mm should be enough (even though its really more like 58mm after subtracting the 12mm center piller). That pillar (present to reduce induction noise by "echo" feedback) causes turbulence right at the sensor wire. Turbulence causes flux in the airflow sensor reading which is sent to the computer. Flux is not optimal for performance. The Pro-M has no such pillar and is designed to reduce turbulence at the sensor. Also, the Pro-M is custom calibrated for your aftermarket filter.
Woah woah woah.... hold on a minute. I apreciate your point about it not beting the size that matters :) You are 100% correct in that but basicly wrong about the way you are defining the diffrence. Do you really think ford designed a MAF so bad that is has "flux" at the sensor wire?????? That pillar has nothing to do with reducing feedback... in fact.. it is the low pressure pulse of the throttle plate opening that the maf actually responds to, to create good throttle response... dont believe me??? move the maf 5 feet further downstream and try it....
Anyways.... that sampleing tube is there to presicly measure.... not to stop echo.... Not only that... but haveing a maf "calibrated" is complete BS. You want the maf to be CORRECT it is a meter and as that fuction it needs to give the EEC the best data posible and let the eec sort out the rest. A maf is NOT calibrated in ANY way. A maf has what is called a "function" wich is given to the eec so that it can interperet the maf's signal. To skew the mafs fuction and not tell the eec CAN benifit you but it is NOT a fix all. Any time to make somthing diffrent by lieing to the computer you are taking a risk. The computer with the best data in almost all cases will have a better chance of making more power then one being lied to. There are times when it does become nesasary to lie to an eec.... but I would like to sugest that more time/money invested in EEC reprogaming would make BOUNDFULL gains over messing with aftermarket mafs. Lets look at like this... Unless you are completly ignorent you must accept that NO greater sized maf will make any more air enter a 2.5 duratec with svt intake parts. This can be proven time and again with numbers and im certain a flowbench. If you accept that... then you accept that you are only benifiting from the "tunning" of the aftermarket item. Why then i ask... dont you do it at least partially "right" and get an AFC or some other tunning device with more scope? The maf is a one shot attempt at a cureall. It has NO scope.... you get what you get... and twisting on a pot only changes the entire function... not just peices of it. If it were as simple as that optimiser then you could simply in line a resistor of proper rating and be done... but since the V=mass-of-air is NOT liniar but is in fact a function it is not posible to do that way and thus NO aftermarket maf will ever truely be a "tune". Id guess the fuction of the aftermarket units simply overreport airflow for the entire funtion with moreso being done in the midrage... this is GREAT as a stand alone mod but if you change things later you will hit problems....
Our eec is a blessing not an enemy... work with it not against it and you will truely see power. After all.... my eec still makes my car run FINE with 19lb injectors and NO tunning what-so-ever with only a check engine light to show for it.... a air/fuel reading shows it has NO problem leaning out the mixture all by itself. I say this only as a statement to the eec's ability to adapt. This is somthing the honda tunners would DIE for.... that BS speed density crap they deal with is a nitemere compared to our well designed set up.
Hrmmm.. how about a comparison to a carborated vehicle... after you mod a carborated engine you tune the carb... rejet or retune depending on the style... it sets the ratios corectly.... now.... would you lets say... add a restrictor plate to the inlet to lean out the mixture??? You are basicly..... well in a round about way doing the same thing here. Instead of fixing what you should be fixing you are taking a shortcut that will bite you later if you ever mod further.....
Ill bet $5 that a aftermarket maf on a forced induction engine would create a massive problem.... in fact... id bet on ANY heavily moded engine it would become more trouble by far then it was ever worth. IIRC trevor never used his with his no2
sorry for the rant.... i appreciate you input...dont get me wrong. In fact id LOVE for you to explain this "flux" theory to me... and maybe where you learned it from.
[quote]Do you really think ford designed a MAF so bad that is has "flux" at the sensor wire?????? That pillar has nothing to do with reducing feedback... in fact.. it is the low pressure pulse of the throttle plate opening that the maf actually responds to, to create good throttle response... dont believe me??? move the maf 5 feet further downstream and try it....
Anyways.... that sampleing tube is there to presicly measure.... not to stop echo.... Not only that... but haveing a maf "calibrated" is complete BS.
Do you really think that big 1.2cm center post, flat to the inrushing air causes no turbulence in a 7.0 cm cylinder? As far as "flux", I am only guessing this may be a turbulence effect but I have little doubt about the center post generating turbulence. The sound reflection function of the center post (as well as the discussion on custom calibration) has been described on the PRO-M webpage (I do admit potential for "bias") and discussed a few times at CEG. As far as a benefical effect of the post on throttle response, I can say with some conviction that throttle response improved NOTICIBLY going to PRO-M that lacks the post. And to your point about moving MAF downstream - several persons have done this with the SCA cold air intake - never heard complaints about impaired throttle response. But sound DID increase with the PRO-M (I noted both these findings in my earlier post). Other people have noted these same 2 findings - just ask. So, it does tend to support PRO-Ms claim. Beyond that, I have no engineering expertiese so I MAY be wrong. This is what we in science call an "anacdotal experience" so take it for what its worth. But again, as a scientist I try to varify things when possible & my objective dyno data suggest the PRO-M to be of benefit. Regards,
Dan
"Do you really think that big 1.2cm center post, flat to the inrushing air causes no turbulence in a 7.0 cm cylinder?"
Actually it isn't flat. It's kind of a point then it gets bigger. The flat part is on the back side. Sorry if I misunderstood the statement.