A good point about 3.0 vs 2.5

[MrFlesh]

After talking to Terry Haine about a 3.0 swap I was quoted $8,000...this is for the motor, bulldog gear box, blueprinting, pnp head, pnp manifold, balancing, lowering compression and some other **** ( I'm at work right now and don't have the peice of paper in front of me that includes everything). He said it would put out probably 185-200 whp (can't remember torque).....but the engine would be able to stand upwards of 20+ psi of boost after all was said and done. All this is estimated of course.
Anyway I talked to a guy at A1 performance here in Pittsburgh and he said that unless I'm building strictly a racer he doesn't recommend the 3.0 swap. His reasons were that with the engine only upgrade I'm only looking at 15 to 30 hp increase for $7,200 ( this is the price he quoted me after taking my 2.5 engine off my hands.). He said granted the engine will be able to take some serious boost, but that's only if the turbo comming out can handle that boost, if it can't in order to take full advantage of what was done to the 3.0 I'd have to have a custom turbo built or a current kit adapted either of which could cost me upwards of 4-5,000 bucks. Say I get all that done now that I'm ramming all that air down my engines throat I need to match it with fuel too...so now I'm paying for upgraded fuel pump and injectors....after this I'm looking at an ECU reprogramming (need to keep ECU to pass emissions here in PA), boost controler, and some other **** ( again I don't have the paper on me). He said I'm looking at 15,000 to 20,000 just on the engine and drive train......while I'm not shocked by this number it's almost the entire amount of money I put in my probe. ( I was able to junk yard shop for alot of my probes ****, not to mention that turbo and everything needed for it came to $1,600)
So here are some questions.......

Anyone know of any junkyard alternatives? Anyone have any info on the turbo kit comming out? How many slices of cheese does it take to get to the moon?

[pgtatx]

something's not right there...3.0L swap, and P&P heads and manifolds will put out a helluva lot more than 185-200whp...even id compressionis lowered to an 8.5:1 whioch would be great for boost. which honestly I wouldn't go for. I'd try to keep compression around the 10.5:1 range rather than the 11.2:1 which comes from the 2.5L heads on the 3.0L block.

I'd guess with your list of mods at the 11:1 compression would be putting well over 200hp at the wheels, probably somewhere like 250whp...

Are you looking to run that much boost?? And why?? Why double the costs when going NA you can be getting upwards of 300hp alone.

I don't know....just my thoughts...terry is the man though.

[MrFlesh]

Those numbers may be well off...I'm sitting at my desk "doing work" and I'm pulling this from memory off a sheet of paper I haven't looked at since monday.

As for turbo.....yes I know it's expensive...and I won't do it if I have to have a custom charger made. At a car show a turbo is more visualy impressive than an all engine. Which suits me fine since this is gonna be my first show car.

[FastCougar]

OK, look at it this way, the guy at A1 (I would be skeptical simply because of their name) told you want he did so that he could retain you as a customer. Think about it ... unless the guy is a friend, anyone would tell you the same because they want the money. For the price that Terry quoted you, that is good considering that Terry was a Ford/Jag engineer for 15+ years and knows what he is doing and will do it well ... better than anyone out there. Not to mention, his BullDog Box will be a must regardless of the route you go. I would say stick with Terry, set everything up and go drop off the car for a few weeks. Otherwise, you will be spending countless hours on the phone to many junkyards across the country and possibly getting parts that are too worn out to reuse dependably. I say give the money to Terry and let him work his magic ... if I still had the Cougar and money, that is what I would do!

As for the power output that Terry quoted you ... double check that ... you should be seing about 200-220 fwhp to the ground NA and around 380+ at 1 bar of boost.

[MrFlesh]

Oh I wasn't making a comparrison on prices I've no problem paying more for better work. Point of this post was to compare 3.0 swap set for turbo vs just using the 2.5.....I'm guessing A1 crappy name was due to the fact it was probably catchy back in the 60's when they started

[Zman]

I'm only looking at 15 to 30 hp increase for $7,200

Maybe I didn't read it all correctly, but you're looking at a lot more hp than that. Remember there is a difference between Wheel hp and engine hp. You're not looking at 15-30hp more, you're looking at about 45-60hp more. 185-200hp at the wheels is quite a bit more than what a stock 2.5 has at the wheels (I think there is usually 140hp at the wheels??)

[MaStaMooN]

Good point zman, also figure the 3L vs 2.5, you get 30 more ft/lbs torque... the 3L is 200/200 at the crank, vs 170/165 for the 2.5L... Thats enough reason to do it right there.!

[FastCougar]

Another thing to consider is why reuse the 2.5 when the 3.0 will pick up about a 20% increase in torque and will take up no extra room under the hood. The 3.0 block and the 2.5 block are identical externally. Plus, if you do this in stages with the built-up 3.0 as the starting block, you will notice much more power out of the gate to build on. This way you will not be riding stock until the turbo system comes out, which is what you would be doing if you stayed with the 2.5.

[Frank]

DavidZ has a 3.0L with P&P heads and 3.0L-size valves putting out 240whp... CR is around 11 because the heads themselves are from the 2.5L

[exigent]

I still think the bulldog box is a waste of money. Sorry Terry... i know i havnt made my response to you about this yet... but after talking to Leo.. he said that you dont sound like you "fix" any of the problems he ran into. I just cant justify putting that much money into a trany that still may simply strip a gear at any time. He said hes NEVER had a problem with syncros... and the heater/cooler is no big deal.... presure lube system is the only part i do not understand. Unless it somehow keeps the gears from striping i dont see the need.

Put that extra money into a set of driveshafts and the LSD. Then if you have a buttload of money get a set of gears... i simply dont see anything else being a huge concearn....

You are talking an AWFUL lot of money there for not much perf. The 3.0L swap alone is an excelent mod. Unless you actaully plan to run 20psi for SURE i wouldnt worry about all that. Just get a 3.0L long block and have a bit of milling done to the heads. Lower comp this way. If you have the money get a set of custom dished pistons... they cant be much more then $800. There are many many options here... and it really does not sound like you are getting your moneys worth out of this.

[FastCougar]

If you don't think that syncros are a concern with the MTX-75, go to the CEG boards and see how wrong you are. Many people have had problems with the syncros. Leo is only one guy and his driving style would not expose a syncro problem. AutoX shifting is normally smooth and controlled ... this type of wear is normally associated with quick shifting and power shifting. Not to mention, Leo has many many years of professional race driving under his belt ... he knows how to shift the car correctly. I would rather overbuild a tranny than have one underbuilt and break.

I spend $2500 on a bulldog box and you spend $1000+ on an LSD + install. We both go to the drag strip and you keep missing 3rd gear because of a bad syncro and I don't. You now must spend another $1000+ to replace the syncros and have the tranny rebuilt. Better to spend the money up front and have peace-of-mind ... at least that is how I look at it.

[MrFlesh]

K now here's a question.

Can I skip on the gearbox for right now? Could the stock tranny and clutch handle the extra power from the 3.0 and the performance work done to it (remember the 3.0 will be running a lowered compression)? The reason I'm asking is that if the stock drive train could handle it, then I could focus the money I have torwards the engine. Then I can budget myself for another large purchase consisting of turbo (and all components needed), gearbox, clutch, LSD.

For future refrence for me could someone post expected hp and torque improvements for various performance upgrades ( Intake, exhaust, tb, upper lower intake manifold, etc) So I have an idea of what performance increases I'm getting with each buy. (advertisements are always off)

[snoop]

MrFlesh where is this A1 performance in pittsburgh I never heard of it and where are u from, I live south of pittsburgh in monessen
there is a couple of car shop around my area that custom build race cars and stock cars

[MrFlesh]

A1 performance is actually located in Greensburg bout 40 miles east of Pittsburgh. It's actually a machine shop, but both father and son build race cars out of thier garage....for use at Jennerstown speedway. Where are there car shops in Pittsburgh? I've been looking for a custom shop, but the only one I found was in new castle but they moved. Did you hear about the track they're building by the airport.....fun stuff

[snoop]

I heard about the track being built but I never heard when it going to be finished or where its located at,
as for the performace custom shop I think its located in charleroi I cant remember what they are call
and for custom body works TC custom by allegheny airport and some place at RT 51 and 88
I went to TC custom they have some nice rides there I know there were working on a 99 cougar
so far I just see a custom paint job.

PS Do u know when the track will be done

[MrFlesh]

As far as I know they're starting it this spring. I imagine that if they can throw up a stadium in 6 months you could expect a race track to go up in less time. I'm not sure where though....I've heard a couple different things.