car is at the tuner.... and having issues

[Frizzle86]

Alright,

I have a 00 cougar with a 3.0L from a Sable in it with SVT cams and a GMK Shorti Intake. No Headers and No exhaust.

Tuner is only getting 165HP and asked me to come over today to test drive it.

I went to take it for a test spin and it is lacking some serious torque down low (just sorta glides up to about 4.5K rpms then it all kicks in like a street bike or turbo). It almost feels as if its down a cylinder. For instance when I had the 2.5L i could let the clutch out step on the gas and it would push me slightly back into the seat and i am not experiencing this at all with the 3L.

The tuner put in new plugs, wires and gapped them smaller so i wouldn't have spark blow out and he also feels that its missing some down low torque.

Any suggestions on what it could be as we both feel its mechanical and not the tune itself.

[erfnick1]

so very low torgue at low rpm's?? First thing that comes to mind is the irc not kicking the secondiars open. have you guys checked that out. i don't remember what its called. but it is connected to the irc it measures the the air flow and it sends the signal to the irc to start opening the secondairs. ( it any one knows what it is called please post. ) But that might be going bad.

[gamiller]

What year block did you install?

What upper intake manifold is installed (e.g. 2.5L Split, 3.0L Split, 3.0L Oval)? What lower (e.g. Split or Oval)? Are you using the IMRC?

[brapple]

so very low torgue at low rpm's?? First thing that comes to mind is the irc not kicking the secondiars open. have you guys checked that out. i don't remember what its called. but it is connected to the irc it measures the the air flow and it sends the signal to the irc to start opening the secondairs. ( it any one knows what it is called please post. ) But that might be going bad.


nope, no power below 3.5 krpm is the secondaries sticking open, not closed. if they where stuck closed you would have no power above that point. also the secondaries are controlled by rpm, not anything else. they only open when above the imrc point, where timing is also bumper up for the added air and fuel flow ....

[Frizzle86]

i am not sure of the year of the engine.

It has the plastic upper intake and every thing in the 3L is from the 3L except for the essential parts needed from the 2.5L.

The MIRC has been tuned out and there are no secondaries as its not a Hybrid build.

[fordrule]

faulty injector?

[Blackcoog]

Is your tuner adding in all the timing needed down low for the full 3L's? The full 3L's are horrible down low unless timing is added.

[Frizzle86]

No faulty or poor injectors. The tuner checked it out.


To respond to black coug. the car just kinda coast almost like i am driving my 97 Mercury Sable with the 16 valve V6 with auto trans till i get to 4.5K rpms then the car feels like a beefy 3L (sounds good too).

The Air Fuel ratio is tuned to be very drivable and its running nicely it just seems to lack that umph.

[fordrule]

next upgrade i would suggest is a better flowing exhaust and some headers and hi-flo cat

[spridget]

You need a more intelligent tuner. Your issue has nothing to do with intake or exhaust.

[AndrewM6097]

next upgrade i would suggest is a better flowing exhaust and some headers and hi-flo cat

I second that, you could have clogged cats that are hurting your cars performance

[bensenvill]

if was clogged cats the power problem would be up top.


+1 to the IMRC being stuck open. had that with my car, and ya, it'll turn it into a dog.
+1 to trying out a different tuner, just cause they got the equipment and a shop and have a good rep with mustangs or something doesnt mean they can tune a duratec for power.

[Frizzle86]

the guy has experience with duratec's he did a 3L contour with a S/C

iirc the 3L does not have a IMRC so I can't see how it could be "stuck open".

[SlowCat]

He said he did a Full 3L w/ SVT cams ... meaning no IMRC to worry about.

Someone else posted 3L, SVT cams, and a few other things and was in 210-220 range. So I would expect you to be near 200, not 165.

Could the cams be installed wrong, having one of the cams a couple degrees off could make a large difference.

[ironworker]

It Also Sounds Like The Secondaries Are Stuck Open To Me Too.. But If They Were Tuned Out, It Wouldnt Effect It..what Rpm Does It Come Alive?

[SlowCat]

Are you sure the IMRC was tuned you, was the fuel & timing adjusted ?

It almost sounds like 2 problems... because even if the tune wasn't adjusted for the missing secondaries he should still be getting something along the lines of 185-195hp at the wheels, not 165. Not tuning the secondaries out correctly shouldn't affect top end power should it ?

Though it could just be the tuning being bad all around.

[boarder4life]

IIRC svt cams still use the IMRC and secondaries, its the 3L cams that eleminate the need for the imrc and secondary butterflies

[SlowCat]

IIRC svt cams still use the IMRC and secondaries, its the 3L cams that eleminate the need for the imrc and secondary butterflies

The secondaries are in the Lower Intake Manifold. Cams have nothing to do with having vs not having them.

The SVT ENGINE does uses IMRC to open & close the secondaries.
He mentioned having a plastic UIM, meaning at least a 2000 or later 3L w/ no secondaries. If he has a full 3L as said then he has NO IMRC or secondaries, even if he swapped in SVT cams.

[ironworker]

But The Design Of Those Cams Had To Of Factored In The Secondaries..

[SlowCat]

They aren't physically there though... You can still physically use SVT cams w/o secondaries. The two are not mystically connected. SVT cams weren't designed specifically for the secondary butterflys, but for the tuning of the secondary runner.

The fact remains that IF he used the 3L LIM it has NO secondaries, end of story, reguardless of cams. Since he said he is using the 3L UIM there isn't even a secondary runner so all of the talk about the secondaries stuck open is pointless, they aren't there. Either the engine was tuned correct for that or not, and it seems like not.

A full 3L, w/ SVT cams properly built & tuned should be putting down much more than 165hp. And with the same proper tuning the lack of secondaries should be a non-existent issue on the 3L below 4000rpm or whatever he said.

All in all I would have to lean twards the cams not timed right when install, or poor tuning, or a combo of both.

[fordrule]

my 3l has svt cams and NO imrc or secondaries but i am running svt UIM/LIM. extra tuning was added to work this out

[nadthomas]

Boarder4life and Ironworker need to get out of this thread. You guys are just making it more confusing, as you clearly have no idea what your talking about.

[fordrule]

ur tuner needs to have the SVT timing tables and use those tables as a BASE of the tune for ur car

[SlowCat]

That's a good point, did your tuner start with an SVT tune, or did he just tweak the stock tune w/o looking at an SVT? He may not be aggressive enough w/ the tune for what the cams are made to do. He may also not be agressive enough w/ fuel & timing down low, meaning the ECM is still trying to run the engine as though it has secondaries. He may have just turned off the IMRC & not actually tuned for them not being present.

[fordrule]

ding ding we might have a winnah.....

[Frizzle86]

i am not sure if he used the stock tune or svt tune for a base.

Which car would he need to base this off of for the SVT tune? The contour SVT maps?

[SlowCat]

Yup, take a look at the SVT contour tune for 3500+ rpms, use that as the starting point, but since you don't have IMRC you'll need to add a lot of timing and fuel down low, may want to look at the stock 3L tune (taurus) to get an idea of how much to start with for below 3500rpms or so.

Your tuner may have done a 3L before, but if it kept the 2.5L intake & IMRC then the tuning will be extremely different.

[Blackcoog]

Is your tuner adding in all the timing needed down low for the full 3L's? The full 3L's are horrible down low unless timing is added.

Did you all miss this post in the beginning of the thread? :banghead:

While 165whp seems low it could be the dyno. We dynoed a full 3L Cougar at a shop near us which I believe dynos low and it put down 169whp and 172tq AFTER a tune. There was nothing wrong with the car. It drove great and even if the dyno numbers are true it still gained a decent amount of hp and tq over stock to make the swap well worth it. Here are the dyno sheets from the car I'm talking about and some full 3L SVT's:

http://www.contour.org/ceg-vb/showthread.php?t=9130&highlight=dyno

BTW are you running a stock exhaust still?

[Frizzle86]

I am still running the stock exhaust.

The tuner has 2 concerns, as there is a major dip in HP and Torque at 3.5K rpms.

He believes if he can tune that out he could get 180 185 HP.

Also, there is some sort of whining noise in 4th gear... it seems to happen when its under heavy acceleration or going up a hill.

[Blackcoog]

The dip is the IMRC opening point at 3500 rpms. It shows up on a lot of the Contour/Cougar graphs.