2.5 to 3.0 questions

[wolfgraj]

I recently bought a cougar with a blown motor (oil starvation) and a slew of body damage(both bumpers are shot). I was looking at doing the 3.0 conversion but have a few questions. I understand the three alternatives but have some specific questions about each.

The hybrid seemed like a perfect solution for me but I'm not sure about the conditions of my 2.5 heads, the cost of cracking the engine open (gaskets, machine work ect) is quite high and compromising the reliability with 11:1 CR doesn't sound fun.

What I am looking at now is the '98-'99 Taurus full 3.0L swap. With this configuration I wouldn't have to port match because these motors already have the split port design (right?). But I still have a few questions....

I have to use the 2.5 valve covers, timing cover, UIM, LIM, and all the accessories (PS pump, AC, alternator) correct?

Does that mean that the IMRC will stay completely functional?

So the swap of one of these motors into a '99 cougar entails
-rewiring 3.0 knock sensor to 2.5 harness
-trimming for alt bracket
-trimming crank for MTX
-electric water pump

Some input would go a long way. Just to make sure I am on the right track and not forgetting something really important.

[SpookSVT]

When you use the Taurus UIM, the IAC should fit. If it doesn't, you'll need to relocate it. A new EGR tube needs to made. Vacuum line routing and PCV will need to be changed as well.

It sounds like a lot of work, I know, but it honestly isn't that difficult. The EGR tube may be the most challenging if you don't have access to a bender or welder. Any fabrication shop should be able to take care of it though. If you're not up to it you can always delete it and block off the passage.

[wolfgraj]

My plan was to use everything from the 2.5 from the heads up that way it would look like the stock 2.5 and all of the houses/vac lines/ect... would fit exactly as they had before the swap. Is that not possible?

[wolfgraj]

Also where would be a good place to get an electric water pump?

[SpookSVT]

My plan was to use everything from the 2.5 from the heads up that way it would look like the stock 2.5 and all of the houses/vac lines/ect... would fit exactly as they had before the swap. Is that not possible?

You can, I would advise against it though. The 2.5L's plenums are too small for a 3L and you would be compromising quite a bit of power.

[wolfgraj]

Alright. I was pretty excited about that setup. It seemed pretty straight forward and cheap. I have some concerns about using a newer (oval ported) motor. In this case I will have to remove the heads from the block for porting. Is it reliable to DIY port match? I can't believe that people are getting consistent air flow to each cylinder with a DIY job. Unless people have home made flow benches too? The alternative is use the LIM off the 2.5 and the UIM from the 3.0? This would entail what you were explaining before?

Aren't people oval porting their newer Taurus motors to reuse their 2.5 plenums?

[SpookSVT]

Alright. I was pretty excited about that setup. It seemed pretty straight forward and cheap. I have some concerns about using a newer (oval ported) motor. In this case I will have to remove the heads from the block for porting. Is it reliable to DIY port match? I can't believe that people are getting consistent air flow to each cylinder with a DIY job. Unless people have home made flow benches too? The alternative is use the LIM off the 2.5 and the UIM from the 3.0? This would entail what you were explaining before?

Aren't people oval porting their newer Taurus motors to reuse their 2.5 plenums?

Someone did run various manifolds on a chassis dyno and confirmed that, as a few of us knew, was inadequete for a 3L engine.

I'd recommend not doing the so called 'porting' to use a twin port manifold to an oval port head. Doing so compromises mixture motion in the combustion chamber. The offset injector position, spray patterns, etc...

Ford Contour & Mercury Mystique Forums - FordContour.Org (http://www.fordcontour.org/home.html) I'd highly recommend getting an account over on FCO and view some of recent threads and start your own should you have any more questions. Investigate your options a bit further before making a decision.

[wolfgraj]

Thanks for all the input

[SicSE]

I have some concerns about using a newer (oval ported) motor. In this case I will have to remove the heads from the block for porting.
Many people have done the porting with the heads still installed. If you take the proper precautions, you'll have no concerns. Though, IMO, the ends do not justify the means - it's a lot of work.

The alternative is use the LIM off the 2.5 and the UIM from the 3.0? This would entail what you were explaining before?
If you're talking about the UIM from a 3L ovalport, it will not bolt to a 2.5 LIM.

I'd highly recommend getting an account over on FCO and view some of recent threads and start your own should you have any more questions.
Just be careful of the questions that you ask and be sure to not disagree or offer any counterpoints to anything Dom says. :rolleyes:

[wolfgraj]

It seems that these sites (NECO, FCO, CEG) all have their STRONG opinions. Kind of hard to search for something when everyone (with a lot more experience then me!) is in disagreement. Right now I am leaning toward an '04 (you were right about the low price) Taurus engine full swap. Still reading away though. Trying to make sense of it all.

[SpookSVT]

I'm steering you away from the 'porting' route and using the 2.5L UIM for multiple engineering based reasons and my own expieriences with it. You've read the differences between the swirl and tumble port configurations and why it is unwise to mix-match parts, I hope.

The final decision is up to you. I just want to make sure you got all the information before making a final decision...

[fordrule]

use lkq to find the engine. ur looking at about ~400 or so on gaskets and headbolts. also remember on using an updated oil pan also. hence why a lot of people try and go with the escape when its possible. try ur best to find an engine that is 01 or newer. i am assuming that you are trying togo the best bang for the buck set up, and also that you are not using any CSVT parts. a full 3L 04 or later would be ur best route. i have seen 04 3L going for around 500 or so. depending on the mileage.
unless you are going for HP then stay away from the full 3L. the power falls flat at higher rpms. its dyno proven that the most hp out of a full 3L is ~200hp and the 3Lsvt is ~220hp. go figure

[SpookSVT]

err....The only thing 'SVT' that is worth anything is the camshafts if you're after wild peak HP.

If you want to talk dyno charts, there is a 216whp 3L with SVT camshafts and, wait, oval ports! Add to that it was not 100% tuned and he is adding a later model manifold and having the tune finalized. Just a low compression engine with bolt on parts and no hogged ports. But that's if you like talking dyno charts...

[Adam98SVT]

its dyno proven that the most hp out of a full 3L is ~200hp and the 3Lsvt is ~220hp. go figure

How much did it cost for that ~220hp 3Lsvt:rofl:

I have stock 04+ 3L in my Contour with fully stock SVT exhaust (minus pre-cats) and a K&N filter and I'm dropping down 200+ in both categories.

I would say there is room for improvement just with bolt-ons. And I can replace my whole engine for under $400.

Adam

[wolfgraj]

The idea of being able to swap 4 year old motors into my cougar for about $400 w/ 20k miles on them is really appealing. I am pretty much set on going with the full swap '04. I heard that I could use my 2.5 oil pan and pickup (or just tap the '04 pan) to fit my MTX. I then plan on using an '02 escape fuel rail (so the fuel rail exits on the correct side). What im sorting out now is going from return------>returnless. I saw that it is easily done with an after market FPR but I also heard a couple of guys have found a way to easily do it (w/o brazing or ne of that stuff) using OEM ford parts.

Im also looking for info compensating for the throttle body positioning (cables and such).

And last of all thinking about a descent tune! Im from the honda world where you custom tune your car on a laptop (real-time with Ostrich). This XCal thing is all new to me.

Any input would be awesome.

[Adam98SVT]

Get w/Dominic (buckeyeSVT) on Ford Contour & Mercury Mystique Forums - FordContour.Org (http://www.fordcontour.org) or Joey (burritaSVT) on here regarding return -> returnless. They both do it differently though.

If you haven't bought the X-Cal, don't. Get to a reputable dyno tuner and make sure they contact Akron Horsepower in Ohio and try get as much info about tuning the Duratec from them as you can. I don't think anyone has as much experience dyno tuning the Duratec as they do. I could be technically wrong on that last sentance but I dont think so.

My .02

Best of luck,

Adam

[wolfgraj]

I shot Dom a message but I hate to bother him with such a vague question. I am sure he gets a bunch of PMs asking for details for the 3.0L swap from people who have no intention of doing it. . . .Must be kind of annoying. As far as the tune goes. I know I am going to catch flak for this next statement but it is just my experience (not much). I was planning on tuning the car myself (I have tuned before. . .). I know I don't have a dyno which does help tremendously but I'm not going to be driving my car on the dyno. I am going to street tune it for street use (not max HP or anything). Save a bit of money too.

Once I get to the tuning stag I am really tempted to avoid Xcal's PRP ($700??) and get a Megasquirt. . .not sure on that though. I would like to focus on getting the engine installed, all the quarks worked out and driving.

As always any input would be great. Thanks for all your guy's contributions so far.

[fordrule]

since your coug is a 99 i would be inclined to say that it is a return system. have you thought of the idea of converting it to returnless? the you wouldn't need to worry about the fuel rail problem

[wolfgraj]

Full ’04-’05 Taurus Conversion
All 3.0 parts
-UIM
-LIM
-Throttle Body

External Alterations
-Trim for alternator bracket
-Trim crank bushing
-Timing cover swap
-switch timing wheel to 2.5 position
-Crank pulley from 2.5
-2.5L valve covers (coil pack mounts on one of them)
-Use '01 Cougar motor mount
-trim motor mount
-Use 2.5 oil pan
-pickup tube from 2.5
-possibly bend bracket for pickup tube

Fuel Modifications
-Injector plug wiring
-use 3.0L injectors
-'02 Escape fuel rail
-so rail exits on correct side
??Other necessities for converting from returnreturn-less

Other Mods
-EGR tube fabrication
-Vacuum lines
-Knock Sensor
-Wire in 3.0 sensor
-Throttle Body bracket
-Frankenstein 3.0 bracket and 2.5 bracket

Anything I am forgetting anything?

(the Escape rail is use just to get the rail to exit on the correct side; it doesn't solve the return-->returnless prob)