How does everyone perform at the pump?

[CheeseEater88]

I get about 26-28 average with 75%+ being city/rush hour
Strictly highway: over 34mpg

but I drive 85+ miles a day

I just would like to start a thread comparing performance mods to performance at the pumps....

For me the only mods that would count would be the
Cold air Weapon-R Dragon intake

people with turbos please chime in :)
I am shooting for one... just not quite sure I should, if it gets horrible mileage
Thanks,

[noggs]

I get 25-26 with a 2.0L and CAI and golf clubs in the trunk
But...in winter im getting 14, with just the CAI

[CheeseEater88]

well, thats low...

you might try putting it into 5th when ever possible... tis what I do...
but winter sucks... I used 1/4th my tank driving 20 miles in heavy snow...

if you can roll around or under 2000rpms your doing great... just dont fall below 1000

lower RPMs and more on the accelerator is more economical than higher RPMs and less on the accelerator.

[GTownCougar]

My cars reading 28.1 right now, with the monster truck winter tires on and subs in the trunk. With my 17's in the summer I get over 31, with subs and golf clubs in the trunk (holy tight squeeze). I'm quite happy with that given that my driving style isnt exactly friendly to mpg, and I'm never under about 2200 rpms because of the god awful rattling sound it makes.

[GTownCougar]

I also have virtually no exhaust, ripped off after the cat. I'll post an update after my 2.5" piping comes in. Hopefully it will effect the mpg for the better.

[Turbo Zetec 'tour]

when i was driving the zetec on a regular basis, before i bought the SVT as a DD, i was getting about 25-28 mixed city/highway. thats with the turbo and driving the piss out of it all the time.

now in the SVT i only average around 22-25 mixed :(

[cbman]

On the highway I can get 37mpg. The gauge actually showed 39mpg, but I checked it after filling up during a long highway drive and the gauge was wrong. Obviously if I get into boost the mileage goes to $hit.

Cheeseater88,
Do you have a 2.0L Zetec? Is it true you once went 140 MPH in your car?

[Turbo Zetec 'tour]

Cheeseater88,
Do you have a 2.0L Zetec? Is it true you once went 140 MPH in your car?

Thats what he claims but i know the governer kicks in at 115.:facepalm:

[Badd_Katt_00]

I think daily driving I get around 22 - 24 mpg. I only drive 8 miles to work one way. 5 stop lights, 2 stop signs, 1 school zone, and one f-ed up military gate that's like going through a slalom after waiting in line for 5 minutes :mad:

Highway driving I recall getting 30 mpg.

No performance mods.

[michig54]

I get about 24 mpg mostly city driving, and about 35 or so strictly highway. My real only performance mod is the Weapon-R CAI.

[luvmy99cougar]

i usually get around 22-25 city and over 34 highway with a performance chip as my only mod.

[noggs]

well, thats low...

you might try putting it into 5th when ever possible... tis what I do...
but winter sucks... I used 1/4th my tank driving 20 miles in heavy snow...

if you can roll around or under 2000rpms your doing great... just dont fall below 1000

lower RPMs and more on the accelerator is more economical than higher RPMs and less on the accelerator.

Its not that bad...I go 55+ in 5th gear, anything lower and its fourth for regular driving...lol :rofl: My car gets better gas mileage when I have it it higher rpms most of the time. But I still try to stick to that lower rpms deal, but truth is, in my car it dosent work lol

[CheeseEater88]

Thats what he claims but i know the governer kicks in at 115.:facepalm:

I can probably take a movie or a picture of my RPMs holding at 7000

I could if you guys antied up an bought me a new water pump.. mine leaks when I do that...

I could post it by monday....


I have no limits but 7000 rpms
edit:
I am not breaking the law for your enjoyment either... I'd have to take a picture before you'd believe me...
I was going over 100 in third...

2nd edit
anyone else having problems with excessive coolant pressure????
is there an aftermarket fix/mod??
I really don't care if you believe me... I either get harassed by those that do or those that don't (lose lose for me)
and why does it matter so much? either you will go that fast or you will never go that fast... I already have can't change that.. what ever good or bad you think of it.
find a close course or disserted stretch of a mile or so, don't bring your friends, and don't end up in the news, better yet keep it to yourself
its not worth the hassle explaining... all I know is I maxed out third and fourth and had to go into overdrive, I got close to 6000 rpms in 5th...
I am no hero for zetecs, I just drive the heck out of them.. I have no idea of what mods I have other than the intake (I bought the car used, MAYBE there is something to that...)

[CheeseEater88]

Zetec turbo

lol, I have to ask about your turbo build...

I decided to stick with the zetec and turbo the son of a gun....

the point of this thread was to figure how bad the fuel economy would be before I do it :)


I know I have gone over 115 atleast 3 times.... 140 is just too excessive to do it more than once.

[Comando489]

20 right now with low tire pressure, intake, middle of winter, exhaust, v6

[Turbo Zetec 'tour]

I can probably take a movie or a picture of my RPMs holding at 7000

I could if you guys antied up an bought me a new water pump.. mine leaks when I do that...

I could post it by monday....

Please do


I have no limits but 7000 rpms
edit:
I am not breaking the law for your enjoyment either... I'd have to take a picture before you'd believe me...
I was going over 100 in third...

3rd gear will only hit 92MPH at 7000RPM:facepalm:


2nd edit
all I know is I maxed out third and fourth and had to go into overdrive, I got close to 6000 rpms in 5th...
I am no hero for zetecs, I just drive the heck out of them.. I have no idea of what mods I have other than the intake (I bought the car used, MAYBE there is something to that...)

maxing out 4th would put you at 130MPH and near 6K RPM in 5th would be 148MPH. to hit those kind of speeds you would need over 200HP. you clearly didnt read this the last time i posted it.

based on my calculations the cougar/contour would need about 130HP just to compensate for wind resistance at 140MPH. that doesnt even account for drive train losses. while searching for the necessary equations i read that ideally you will probably want almost double what the calculated required horsepower is. that puts it up to 260HP. last i checked very few zetec cougar/contours have the much power.

with just an intake (ill even through in a chip since you claim you dont have a governer and rev limiter is up at/past 7K RPMS) you MIGHT hit 140WHP. i was hitting 125WHP with an intake, exhaust, and UDP. and even with that it took several miles to hit 115MPH.

I think that with my turbo kit i could probably hit 140MPH, but like you said there is really no reason to do so.







Zetec turbo

lol, I have to ask about your turbo build...

I decided to stick with the zetec and turbo the son of a gun....

the point of this thread was to figure how bad the fuel economy would be before I do it :)



you can find more details on my turbo kit in this thread (http://www.newcougar.org/forums/2-0l-zetec-performance/116474-everyones-cougar-status.html) and the build up in these (http://www.contour.org/ceg-vb/showthread.php?t=11768) two (http://www.contour.org/ceg-vb/showthread.php?t=14039) threads on CEG.

[CheeseEater88]

15*7=105!!!! :facepalm:

2000rpms in third is 30 mph

*sigh*


I don't know why its so hard for you to get up to 115

there are several options.... down hills and drafting

I see beaters, cars so beat to crap most have a broken tailight and no hub caps left doing over 100 in a 70... some on home made drag slicks :)

I never said I went up hill and did the 140.. that would be impressive....
I still say I could have gone faster


maybe your car needs to be tuned... there is no way you shouldn't hit 115.
try new spark plugs, new fuel filter, clean/replace you air filter, inflate your tires... when is the last time you've changed your oil?

so when is 5.92K the only number near 6.0K? 5700 would be near too would it not??

is yours automatic??
I am at a loss here.... sorry to hear about your car

[CheeseEater88]

you only need about 35hp to maintain 60mph in a larger car. (obviously depending on several factors)... on K&Ns site... I believe them
wind resistance is not linear I know that but 140hp for a speed of 140 is really large. Cars that go over 200 have a crazy high overdrive way over the usual 20-30% seen in most cars. longer gears= less torque at higher gears... but engines are all limited by RPM; and torque can added by via forced induction, larger displacement, cams, you name it.

260hp is a very extrainious estimate for required horse power to go that fast.

it can coast up past 90mph... (downhill... though it was in the mountains)

on level ground... all you would be fighting against would be friction from moving parts: engine, wheels and transmission... in addition to the wind. there is no magic horse power number associated with any speed.


get an air tunnel or something to calculate drag at 140mph then you may call beans, you oppinion is not worth much in my mind

how you got to that 260 hp I'll never know. though it did give me and my friends a chuckle.

lets either start a new thread for this fight or drop it... we both look like trolls
you could call it "Cheese and Turbo fight over stuff they'll never convince eachother of"

thanks for hijacking my thread

[GTownCougar]

I don't know why its so hard for you to get up to 115


Not to continue with the hijacking but...When the car is governed at 115, it makes it a wee bit difficult to go over 115. Granted you can go a little faster down a hill, but when the engine stops putting out, you stop going faster. :crazy:

[Turbo Zetec 'tour]

maybe your car needs to be tuned... there is no way you shouldn't hit 115.
try new spark plugs, new fuel filter, clean/replace you air filter, inflate your tires... when is the last time you've changed your oil?



is yours automatic??
I am at a loss here.... sorry to hear about your car

it has been tuned. in fact i produce about 220WHP and i dont have a problem hitting 115 in my car. plugs are new, fuel filter is new, air filter is new, tires are good, and the oil was changed about 10 miles ago :D

it is an MTX and the problem has been fixed. now i just need to get ahold of a set of Ksport coilovers.




air drag dominates at high speed, and the power it soaks up is proportional to the cube of speed. In most cases, you would need close to six times the power at double the speed.
that means your 35HP at 60MPH then becomes 210HP at 120MPH.


The power required to overcome aerodynamic drag = 0.5rho*Cd*A*V*V*V

where rho = density of air = 1.2 kg/m3, Cd = drag coefficient, A =frontal area of the car in m^2, V = velocity (55mph = 25m/s)

Cd of a contour/cougar is .31 according to Ford.
Frontal area is approximatly 2.43m^2
velocity is 150mph=67m/s

.5*1.2*.31*2.43*67*67*67=135938.8607w or 135.939Kw
136Kw = 182HP required just to overcome air resistance. that doesnt include rolling resistance (which i have the calculations for) transmission loss, or other frictional losses.


In real life you probably want twice as much at the motor. (due to wind, slopes & transmission losses)

in 3rd gear you only gain about 13.1-13.2MPH per 1000RPM. 13.1*7=91.7 or ~92 which is what i said before.:facepalm:

very rarely do i ever post anything without having done the research and/or calculations. If you still dont believe me (even after showing you the math) then so be it.

here play with the rpm vs speed spreadsheet i downloaded from Warmongers own website.


edit: link (http://www.mail-archive.com/ev@listproc.sjsu.edu/msg07863.html) to were i finally found the formulas for HP needed at a given speed. (its an email archive so you have to scroll to the bottom and work your way up)

also a link for unit conversions (http://www.mr2ownersclub.com/converter.htm)

[iceberg65]

props to turbo zetec tour, this guy knows his stuff, every post ive seen from him is accurate. maybe someones speedo needs calibration

[CheeseEater88]

I am not saying your math is off... its just applied wrong... I don't live at sea level, you have no idea of the density of the air that given day, you don't know how hot or cold it was, you don't know the grade of the hill if there was one, you don't know my tires, you don't know my car. *edit... your math is off*

whips out the TI-89

I might be wrong but when I convert 140 mph to m/s I get 62.5856 m/s

Speed and Velocity Conversion (http://www.unit-conversion.info/speed.html)

small error but could throw things off a bit... especially when its cubed.

I get 110,800.69 watts... which is 110.8 Kw
which converts to about 150hp..... now that sounds reasonable

I'll double check...

still same answer... maybe the sites broken...
I know turbo wouldn't make a mistake... especially if he bothered to show his math.

listen check my work three, four, five, or how many ever times you want.... its your equation which you messed up trying to be a smart ass.

I checked mine twice before posting....

(.5)(1.2)(.31)(2.43)(62.5856)^3

Quote:
The power required to overcome aerodynamic drag = 0.5rho*Cd*A*V*V*V

where rho = density of air = 1.2 kg/m3, Cd = drag coefficient, A =frontal area of the car in m^2, V = velocity (55mph = 25m/s)


your math proves it... now leave me alone... it is possible... even without the hill.

since you sound reasonable I'll tell you how fast yours will go with 220whp

220whp is approx.. 164053.9717481 watts or joules / sec

we manipulate the equation to solve for V^3 which I will do my awesome calculator

(164053.9717481)/((.5)(1.2)(.31)(2.43))= V^3
you can go 71.332784486 meters per second which is 159.56689443 mph
which is false.. since most likely you live above sea level and the air is less dense.. so you should be able to go faster than that.



and don't ever make me do this again!
I am sorry it had to go this way... but I am very weary of when stuff I know goes on defies "physics" when I have had over 4 semesters worth, I just had to check your math.
*waits for an apology*
or atleast give me a truce....

[CheeseEater88]

Can we go back to buisness as usual???

just please don't pre round.... that is a tip for everyone..
I bet the numbers would be lower hps if we had more accurate inputs.

but kudos on comming up with that equation... it takes some real dedication to come up with that.

its a nice equation too.

and no my car does not have a speed limiter... *sigh*

we cool turbo?


ok since I like to calculate stuff out...

the cougar weighs in at 2861 lbs
I weigh 150
the sub, salt, shovel, jumper cables, book bag, and other misc. items probably weigh in at 75 lbs

so we add that all up getting a total of 3086lbs (its a low estimate..)
that then converts to 1399.78605382 Kgs..
knowing that gravity aplies a force of 9.8 Nm per kilogram of mass on everything here on earth
we assume on level ground... that gravity pulls straight down at a whopping 13717.9033274 Nm.
if we were to use gravity to our advantage... like driving down a shallow hill... something to the tune of 5 degrees... we can expect gravity to accelerate us forward with 1200.1610285 Nm of force
when that angle is increased the magnitude of the force is increased... a slope down with 10 degrees would yield 2418.83 Nm

the newton meter data can be applied to the theoretical top speed me an turbo were discusing

Newton metre - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newton-meter)

to keep it easy a Nm equals one joule... we were using joules in the previous calculations.
a Watt is a Joule/second
since gravity gives us constant acceleration we can use this to determine a max speed down a hill.
so 110800.69 watts is required to go 140 mph
we take that number and subtract out he gain in watts from gravity.
at 5 degrees you'd need 147hp
at ten you'd need a little more than 145
all this being at SAE or what ever standards... people at lower elevations have to push more air than those at higher elevations.

if you find yourself at sea level and a on a hill sloping down at 20 degrees

as long as the gear you are in is not over drive... you should have all the torque you need to get past 120
with overdrive you lose about 20% of your torque as compared to a 1.00 gear (I forget what the cougars/contours have)
you are geting (because of the gearing) greater torque to the wheels than your engine would if it was directly spining the wheels.

I'll look up the gear ratios for the I4 and get back here and re edit this post
but essentially you get
2.9414:1
input:output
engine:wheel in fith gear!

so for every wheel roation the engine spins roughly 3 times... this means the torque generated by the engine is increased roughly 3 fold or 2.9414 to be more acurate.

the following is where I got the data from... I and other people dispute some of the values given.... like the max input torque for starters

lets say I only get 80hp off of the shaft comming out of the motor at peak rpms... multiply that by a factor of FD and gear ratio and you'd have my actual output...
there you have it anything is possible.... I would have argued this sooner if I was more inteligent.
I have to edit some previous posts now.
MTX-75-A (US/NA CDW-27 MTX)
Manual, Five Speed
Max Input Torque: 250 Nm (184 Lb-Ft)
1st: 3.42 (37mph, 39mph)
2nd: 2.13 (59mph, 63mph)
3rd: 1.45 (87mph, 93mph)
4th: 1.03 (123mph, 131mph)
5th: 0.77 (164mph, 175mph)
Reverse: 3.73 (34mph, 36mph)
Final: 4.06 (V6) , 3.82 (I4)
Overall Weight: 46 Kg (101 Lb)

MTX-75-B1 (European CDW-27 MTX)
Manual, Five speed
Max Input Torque: 250 Nm (184 Ft-Lb)
1st: 3.42 (37mph, 39mph)
2nd: 2.13 (59mph, 63mph)
3rd: 1.48 (85mph, 91mph)
4th: 1.11 (114mph, 121mph)
5th: 0.86 (147mph, 156mph)
Reverse: 3.46 (36mph, 39mph)
Final: 4.06 (V6) , 3.82 (I4)
Overall Weight: 46 Kg (101 Lb)

calculations done w/ 6850rpm max engine speed and 215/55/16 tires. I also assumed the vehicle will have the power to attain such speed..

also forgot to do calculations for loss of torque due to a lever arm which is the wheel
some one else chime in I am all mathed out

just make it a 1 foot lever arm... 130ft/lbs * 2.9414 = 382.382 ft/lbs that / 1ft = 382.382lbs of force I think i totally botched this last step /i haven't done rotational acceleration in forever.

I cannot verify my data/arguement yet so its probably wrong.
and turbo get in here... I need a critique....

[Turbo Zetec 'tour]

maybe tomorrow if im bored at work ill double check everything. as for my calculations your correct, i screwed up the velocity. it should indeed be ~62.5m/s. the 67m/s is for 150MPH (I will edit my post to reflect the 150MPH). that does show that at those speeds how much more power is needed just to go an extra 10MPH.

i also neglected to take into account altitude but i also didnt include rolling resistance either (although the latter isnt very much in most cases)

BTW i live at ~700ft above sea level. i also dont have very many straight, flat roads to go test the top speed on either though. not that i really care since the extra power just makes the turns that much more fun.

one thing that i would like to note is that at the higher altitudes your car will make less HP as well. so even though the air is thinner and provides less resistance you have less power to try to move through it as well. im not sure if the loss of power is enough to make a noticible difference until you get to extremely high altitudes though.

second note: in your qupte of the gear ratios, the final drive of the zetec is actually 3.84 (for future reference) although thats a negligable difference.

third note: finding a hill thats 20 degrees and long enough to attain such speeds will be difficult. hell, just finding a hill thats near 20 degrees will be difficult since that would result in a 35% grade hill:eek:

for the record a list of the 8 steepest streets in the world. obviously there isnt many, and only 2 of them are actually greater than 35% grade (one of those is even limited to only 4WD vehicles and the section at 45% is not very long)
1. Honokaa-Waipio Road (near Waipio, HI, maximum grade 45%)*
2. Canton Avenue (between Coast and Hampshire, Pittsburgh, PA, 37%)
3. 28th Street (between Gaffey and Peck, Los Angeles, CA, 33.3%)
4. Eldred Street (west of Avenue 48, Los Angeles, CA, 33%)
5. Baxter Street (between Alvarado and Allesandro, Los Angeles, CA, 32%)
5. Fargo Street (between Alvarado and Allesandro, Los Angeles, CA, 32%)
5. Maria Avenue (north of Chestnut, Spring Valley (near San Diego), CA, 32%)
8. Dornbush Street (between Bricelyn and Vidette, Pittsburgh, PA, 31.98%)

* Four-wheel-drive only.



I think thats all for now :biggrin:

[CheeseEater88]

so we cool??? :)

wow that was drawn out....

sorry about that...

we seem some what eye to eye?

I'll make up a excell sheet/ program to calculate theroretical top speeds... just for kicks... and maybe a chart too.

I totally agree that small increase of 10 mph requires alot of horse power.

[lildevil20006]

I've been getting an average of about 16mpg...:(

2002 ATX v6 w/ SRI
I'm very nice when it comes to driving my Coug, i very rarely go over 3400rpm anywhere, and i've used injector cleaner to no avail.
I sometimes feel like going on long road trips just so i can get better life out of my gas tank

Only thing i can really think of is that it's been about 6*-30* for the past month or so *brrrrrrr cold*

Please make me get better Gas Mileage!

My 3.4L Camaro got better MPG than my Coug :banghead:

[CheeseEater88]

not much you can do for an automatic.... *sigh*

I have yet to see my colbalt ever hit 30 mpg... (well 99 once but I was coasting :) ) just never able to get over 28... and I'd average about 24.5
the tank would only get me 250-300 miles... so I'd fill up atleast 2X a week.

but trick that I know of

accelerate at the base of a hill and keep light but steady on the gas... don't push down to compensate if at all possible.

you waste so much fuel when your car downshifts... speed up lightly enough before a hill (not to force a downshift), then appliy as minimal force as possible to maintain your speed with out downshifting.


in a manual... you have ultimate control... thus you have ultimate say on what kind of milage your engine gets.

motor cyclists and bicyclists use this trick to save energy.

you can probably get 1-2 mpg better if you can master the art of driving up hills.


as for stoplights and stop signs.
ease out slowly :)
where I live only about 5% of the population even slows down for them.
I almost been killed (on my bike) atleast 20 times by people blowing through them. So I make it a point to stop, and I give those that don't a bad look, a honk or engine rev. (not really into hand jestures)

I slapped this one car when I was on my bike.

the hill thing should help.... if you drive like your 85 you might see that EPA estimated stuff.... not speeding helps...

[CheeseEater88]

I will say that the absolute limit for speed in the cougar will be 230
you'd need over 400hp
the resistance would be 658hp
you'd need a fith gear with a ratio around .57
or change the final to a 2.9
fastcoug you got this?
if not do it for the insane fuel economy (changing the ratios)

the cougar is the car I plan to own and drive untill I can either buy or build a ford GT.... 60K(for a build) isn't to bad for a car that will destroy any american made car (excluding itself)

it can roast stock corvetts there are movies of a twin turbo GT that goes from 60 to over 200 in what seems like under 4 seconds

[Turbo Zetec 'tour]

so we cool??? :)

wow that was drawn out....

sorry about that...

we seem some what eye to eye?

I'll make up a excell sheet/ program to calculate theroretical top speeds... just for kicks... and maybe a chart too.

I totally agree that small increase of 10 mph requires alot of horse power.
yeah we cool, for know;):biggrin::biggrin:

like i said in my edit line, finding the answers and solving the problems is most of the fun. I guess i should have been an engineer with a statement like that. :):)

[lildevil20006]

you can probably get 1-2 mpg better if you can master the art of driving up hills.

I live in Michigan...we don't have hills :tongue:
I figure the cold has a lot to do with it...but i should probably change [or at least check out] my spark plugs, and possibly seafoam...no more ideas for now...

:confused:

[GTownCougar]

I agree 100% with the accellerating before the hill. Learned that a while ago in my 5.2 Grand Cherokee. When that thing downshifts halfway up a hill I can just about watch the gas guage drop. And the seafoam was great in my cougar, not sure about MPG, but I know it made it idle and run smoother, so thats gotta do atleast a little bit for mileage.

[noggs]

HOLY F*** This is about the most inteleigent or the most bull sh**ed thread I have ever read. Props to both of you :) I read through it while I was in physics class because I was done with my assignement:rolleyes: and my teacher came over and was dumbfounded by the equations and combined variables I was looking at:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:

I want to know what Ford says about all of this...:evil:

[CheeseEater88]

I was looking around on the internet after my last post...

there is a ford probe prototype with a Cd (coeffiecient of drag) of .19

I made up some equations for stuff

if you have a TI grapher you can see some cool stuff

I have MPH as the variable (X)

I have equations set up to give me wind resistance in HP
wheel speed
engine RPMs
and needed horsepower at the engine after gears

a very awesome and easy graph :) :biggrin:


but that probe... holy cow... it could go wicked fast.... you could hit 300mph if you managed to stay on the ground..

main thing that limits top speed is RPMs...

the more range the less you have to nerf your power. the less nerf the better right? :)

but fast cougar could go very fast... if he'd run at 9,000 +

I'll post my equations in a bit


here they are

the Coefficent of drag equation
(0.5*1.2*0.31*2.43*(X*0.44704)^3)/745.69987158227

so its 1/2(density of air)(coefficent of drag)(M/s)^3 but I added some cool things too it.... you can plug Mph straight into(X) it and get required HP out. instead of using the M/s and getting joules/sec

the next is engine horsepower required (the minimum number you'd need more to hit the speeds)

(0.5*1.2*0.31*2.43*(X*0.44704)^3)/(745.69987158227*2.9568)

the 2.9568 is how many times the engine spins per wheel rotation (in a I4 in 5th gear)


this would give you the rpms of the wheels at that speed.
(((5820*12)/(2*pi*12.25))(X))/60

and
((((5820*12)/(2*pi*12.25))(X))/60)(2.9568) would give you the engine RPMs at that speed.

you could go 246 with a 10,000 rpm limit assuming you had power way up at that RPM
you'd need around 400HP...

but only if you could keep the back end on the ground.

have fun calculate responsibly