Acceleration graph?

[FastCougar]

I have an idea ... rather than a 4th gear pull from 2,200 RPM to 6,800 RPM, how about a full 0-100MPH graph. I think this would settle everything and clear up a few things. I understand the graph fully, but it's partial non-real world data. Doing a 1st - 4th full pull will show how the hybrid will stay in the power band and should eek past the full oval port to the 100 MPH mark ... just a guess ... until the tests are done.

[gamiller]

Trevor, I'm just gonna have to race you, man... :tongue:

[SpookSVT]

A lot has been lost in translation. No one said or should have said that the straight 3L is the faster car. It has great acceleration in the low to midrange areas, a bit limited up top though. It was agreed, ealry on, that it was the faster car.

The original thread:

3L vs. SVT cams - FordContour.Org (http://www.fordcontour.org/3L-vs-SVT-cams-t9873.html)

Also consider, there is a rather large price gap between the two engines in debate. The hybrid has a few thousand more invested (a lot more mods).

The point is, that for the money, the straight swap is the best bang for the buck. Invest another couple thousand in the oval port like the hybrid has, and I have pretty good feeling that hybrid isn't looking too good.

The old stuff is just that. I know a lot disagree, but the flaws of the strait swap are remedied and enhanced with the same money invested in the hybrid.

This is all that really needs to be said.

[StealthyWeasel]

I ported the heads to match SVT manifolds, which cost me $0.00.

If I had an SVT, the manifolds would have been free. I paid $150 for them, so whatever. Price of the 05 UIM or at least there abouts. The cams were $200, again chump change. Stock timing can be used, and again if I had an SVT the cams would be free. There is little to no argument oval vs split port, MAYBE with a hybrid but look at warmongers' original hybrid- 217whp and he didn't spend much. Once you customize a car this much, labor is really no object (unless you have to pay someone I guess).

[Adam98SVT]

Spook - a valid point.

I think once I have my exhaust sorted out, I have a shot at beating a "typical" hybrid that has been built and tuned properly. There is just so much torque its retarded. You would never guess its a 6 cyl 3 liter.

To put it in perspective, my dad, in his days, played with the 60s muscle cars. He has drivin plenty of fast cars since, (usually whatever Im driving haha), and when I first took him for a ride after my 3l install, immediately after running through the gears on an on-ramp continuing up ~100mph he said he hadent felt that kind of grunt for many years.

I wont be doing any 1/4 miles until I get my transmission renewed with a Quaife LSD, new clutch, and hardened axles, but when I do, if there is still speculation about the performance of oval vs hybrid, I will put up my car for testing purposes.

Gotta re-build that bankroll first, but its only a matter of time ;)

Adam

[BurritaSVT]

I have an idea ... rather than a 4th gear pull from 2,200 RPM to 6,800 RPM, how about a full 0-100MPH graph. I think this would settle everything and clear up a few things. I understand the graph fully, but it's partial non-real world data. Doing a 1st - 4th full pull will show how the hybrid will stay in the power band and should eek past the full oval port to the 100 MPH mark ... just a guess ... until the tests are done.

The only questionable theory that will be summed up as soon as the 2004 cams get here is does the SVT UIM make more power up top or does the Oval port intake suffer up top. Once we get the data we can do shift points and see which car is in the powerband longer and that will be the best setup for racing. The beast hybrid makes power past 5200 and never falls off so the uIM is flowing excellent up top regardless of the cams since the UIM and LIM is the upstream. IF the UIM was to small as in plenum the topend would fall off no matter what cams you have in there so I am convinced by the hybrids the UIM is designed very well to flow. The plenums act as a huge runner where the flow of air keeps pushing the air so when we go there we will also have another UIM with a larger TB to see what gains we get.

I will be doing over 6 different combinations on the dyno answering all the question at my expense. Joey

[Rikenbomb]

The beast hybrid makes power past 5200 and never falls off so the uIM is flowing excellent up top regardless of the cams since the UIM and LIM is the upstream.

Could you please elaborate on this?

IF the UIM was to small as in plenum the topend would fall off no matter what cams you have in there so I am convinced by the hybrids the UIM is designed very well to flow.

However, the UIM on my car is an EH SVT UIM, NOT a factory SVT UIM. I believe results will vary (negatively) with a factory setup.

Also, when I did retune my car, I changed out the SVT LIM for a '99 3L LIM. Low end gains were obviously made (both in roller dyno and butt dyno).
Finally, let's not forget Hybrids higher CR compared to full 3Ls.



Trevor, I believe you are right. The hybrid will start to walk a full oval port 3L but not until well into 3rd and 4th gear (approx. 80+ mph).

[buckeyesvt]

Ok, here's a data program I use to input variables like Torque, car weight, driver weight, gear ratios and final drive and tire size. This program is excellent for this type of comparison.

Since HP is basically a calculation derived off of Torque... This program acts like a mini dyno (but better). Take both cars, Henry's Cougar (The Beast..lol) and my car (Projectmobile). Two different engines.. Two different HP/TQ curves.. Hmm. Lets see how they fair against eachother in a timed trial. This program will calculate best shift points and also what gears to be in for maximum effective acceleration.

Onto the goodies:

Dyno sheet (Program Calculated)
http://www.fordcontour.org/images/Carsoft.jpg

Now, the performance metrics evaluation:
http://www.fordcontour.org/images/Carsoft1.jpg



Hmm... weird that you see the Hybrid actually has to downshift to get to maximum power where the straight 3L doesn't. Look at the 30-60 / 30-90 and 30-120 times... All have to downshift because there's not enough effective power to be made at that point to accelerate efficiently.

Now in case someone thinks this is made up or false... Here's the inputted factors. Remember the Cougar has a weight advantage on the Contour as well.. 2894 vs 3068lbs! So... with that in mind a Contour vs. Contour match may fare worse because the weight advantage is gone. I made both drivers 160lbs and gave them lightning fast shifting abilities. Remember, miss a shift and any run is toast... Period.

Factors:
http://www.fordcontour.org/images/Carsoft3.jpg
http://www.fordcontour.org/images/Carsoft4.jpg

Again, taken with a grain of salt. Of course the Hybrid with all the money spent and time invested BETTER kill the $1000 straight 3L. Well, it does sorta - But not by the margin everyone thinks. And also... If anyone thinks they are going to stick an SVT UIM on a straight 3L and get these numbers out of this hybrid.. :crazy:. We're comparing a plain 3L to a ringer here...lol.

-Dom

[BurritaSVT]

Very nice program I like the setup and it seems that if you were to put it in the same weight car it would even be more.....try it I am curious to see how mych more quicker it is.

Oh about the SVT UIM all dynos with 3 liter pulled up top because I highly doubt you overflowed your original manifold unless you dynoed it before to get a comparison. It would be nice if someone had a EH one for me to dyno as a 6th comparison.

Nice post

[buckeyesvt]

Much more quicker? Physics tells me it takes more force to push more weight... Hence the figures aren't going to be so pretty for the heavier platform. Even the (Monster) engine has to labor more to push the weight.

Let's take a looksee shall we?

http://www.fordcontour.org/images/Carsoft5.jpg
http://www.fordcontour.org/images/Carsoft6.jpg

Here's the makeup of both (same cars, same tires as the original test - Only weight has changed this time.

http://www.fordcontour.org/images/Carsoft7.jpg
http://www.fordcontour.org/images/Carsoft8.jpg

Again, now the race could be clearly between 2 drivers. With those shifts, alot could be different between both cars in reality. This is giving that all conditions are perfect and optimum. This does not factor in wheel spin or anything else. If you were to have a perfect run between both cars this would be the outcome.... Persay.

-Dom

[cpapashley]

That is a great program there Dom. great presentation of information as well.

I guess it isn't freeware.....:(

[buckeyesvt]

Actually it was designed by a University in California. It is freeware for anyone to use (aside from commercial purposes).

Here's the link to the program (web based):

Car Performance Calculator (http://vlsicad.ucsd.edu/~sharma/Potpourri/perf_est_intro.html)

-Dom

[SpookSVT]

Not bad for a stock engine...

[FastCougar]

Very slick tool ... NICE find. Of course, as you pointed out, this depends highly on not spinning the wheels. BTW, for those using the tool, the torque graph requires that you grab the input points and drag them to create your torque curve.

[buckeyesvt]

You can set the points as low as 100RPM increments. That explains why the results on the HP are a little low (a little less data).. However, a fair and complete representation of both.

I just exported the raw data from WinPeP and moved the torque values to their proper places. Works pretty good unless you do it at 100RPM increments... Then it sucks majortime as it takes forever to do...lol

-Dom

[FastCougar]

Yep, it would great if there was an import feature for the graphing ... about the only improvement on this tool that I can think of.

[cpapashley]

Actually it was designed by a University in California. It is freeware for anyone to use (aside from commercial purposes).

Here's the link to the program (web based):

Car Performance Calculator (http://vlsicad.ucsd.edu/~sharma/Potpourri/perf_est_intro.html)

-Dom


Great stuff there Dom,

Thankyou....