2.5L/3.0L Coil On Plug upgrade available!

[buckeyesvt]

I know there are alot of people here that have done 3.0L swaps. Of those, I know some were looking to use the COP setup that came stock on their engines. Doing some research, I discovered the Coil On Plug system could be used on stock 2.5L (with appropriate hardware) and 3.0L Full and Hybrid engines. The only change in hardware would be the valve covers for the non-COP setup engines (like hybrid and 2.5L stock) that aren't designed with the COP bungs and the COP units themselves.

All that is required to make the system work is a redesigned harness that properly reconfigures the coils to work with the Cougar stock DIS system. I am going to offer the harness for sale soon, however I am gauging interest first before I do. This is not a flash in the pan idea - It is proven out and is working on a 2005 Full 3L in a 99 Contour SVT. I will attach a link below to view the video.

To sort out a few questions I will try to answer them all here first and then answer questions as they come up.

Why is COP better? First off, gets rid of the spaghetti bowl on top the motor (worse in the case of straight 3L's due to having the coil up front instead of the rear). Honestly I never wanted to use a standard coil - But my overall understanding of the system was a little green in how to properly convert it to work on standard Non-COP EEC's. Other benefits include: Lifetime serviceable unit - COP has a lifespan of the engine itself... therefore no replacing wires ever again. The COP units also allow for tighter spark control as there is no latency between the coil firing and the spark traveling the cable. This is probably one of the most "usable/felt" benefits as throttle response and torque become a big factor on the bottom end in relation to spark control. Plus, no wires means no breaking down of the internal core of the wire, no misfires and no missing under heavy load from cross talk between the spark plug wires. Plus you can now add COP to the list of items made to work on Cougars with existing electrical hardware. Most of the guys who have newer engines may have these laying around already! Put them to use!

Now, how much do coils cost? Motorcraft New Coil On Plug units (2M2Z-12029-AC) $39.46 each! Bill Jenkins (Team Ford). Valve covers, well - that I didn't check on. I was aiming this more at the 3.0L guys but the 2.5L and 2.0L guys could use this setup as well if they wished. Final harness pricing hasn't been determined yet (looking for less expensive supplier of coil ends), however right now it stands around $165.00. If we source aftermarket coil end replacements the total cost for the harness could come down to $110-$115. This will be a brand new harness, all loomed and sealed up. It will require 4 wires (the factory wires going into your factory coil plug) to be spliced in. It will not be a hard installation as most of it is plug and play.

Is there an interest here for this? Since this morning I have 14 interested people on FCO... Any more? I'll check this thread for updates as I can.

Pic:
http://www.fordcontour.org/uploads/1190152882/gallery_1032_101_28706.jpg

Video: Coil on Plug demonstration video (http://www.fordcontour.org/uploads/COPVideo1.wmv)

-Dom

[StealthyWeasel]

Awesome man good work, I would def. buy it as long as it works with no flaws. What's the total cost everything considered?

[buckeyesvt]

It works with no flaws. Price depends on if you have coils already or need to buy coils. I posted above about the price of the the coils themselves and the price of the harness at this moment. If I get more orders (interest now sits a 20) the better the price will be.

Perhaps in a week or so I will be able to lay out exact costs. I want to throw the offer out there to see how many people would be interested in buying the harness to do this easily.

-Dom

[cpapashley]

OK so what you are saying is I can change my Cam covers, and get rid of my 2.5l ignition system with the three coil towers, plug in these individual coils make no changes to the pcm and then I have the superior coil on plug system, is that right??

Or is there something I am missing??

That would really appeal to me, and might to those who have the first generation 2.5l MPV's.

Please correct me if I am reading this wrong.

[buckeyesvt]

OK so what you are saying is I can change my Cam covers, and get rid of my 2.5l ignition system with the three coil towers, plug in these individual coils make no changes to the pcm and then I have the superior coil on plug system, is that right??

Or is there something I am missing??

That would really appeal to me, and might to those who have the first generation 2.5l MPV's.

Please correct me if I am reading this wrong.

Right now the only issue we are researching is the IMRC on the front valve cover. Unfortunately all the covers we've looked at so far (with COP) do not have the IMRC mounting point on the front valve cover. This present a small issue - Because the COP will work without any other modifications (like to the PCM or such) but the IMRC is still needed and the mounting is not there.

So, if anyone else would like to dive into this (I have no idea how the MPV is setup vs. the Cougar).

-Dom

[morbid]

Better to move the imrc off of the head anyways. Just say it has to be relocated and be done with it.

[fordrule]

is the COP adjustable? lets say you have a xcal2 and a PRP. and you can adjust the ecu? will the cop parameters be in there?

[cpapashley]

Right now the only issue we are researching is the IMRC on the front valve cover. Unfortunately all the covers we've looked at so far (with COP) do not have the IMRC mounting point on the front valve cover. This present a small issue - Because the COP will work without any other modifications (like to the PCM or such) but the IMRC is still needed and the mounting is not there.

So, if anyone else would like to dive into this (I have no idea how the MPV is setup vs. the Cougar).

-Dom


Well for me that is not much of an issue as I have already moved the IMRC, just got so sick of the intermittent way it worked, works every time now :biggrin:

So from reading through your first post the COP harness will connect into the existing wiring that goes to the 2.5l coil pack, is that right?

Sounds like this might be a cool little upgrade.

Now the fact I am in Australia means that I would more than likely source my cam covers from somewhere else other than importing from america. So will the 3.0l cam covers from the Mazda Tribute/Ford Escape work?? Other wise I will have to just pass it on to others in NA MPV land as something they may want to follow up as an option. I think that is the only 3.0l cam covers for the duratec that makes its way to Australia, unless the cam covers in the Jaguar Xtype with the 2.5l engine is the same and has the same water pump location, although that may not affect it just thinking aloud...

Oh dear so many questions, I will stop there to wait for some answers.

Thanks in advance.

[fordrule]

any word on the COPs and xcal? is it compatable?

[buckeyesvt]

Sorry, to both of you (Cp and fordrule). I have been completely drained by tanother 3L discussion (I'm sure you're aware of the one I am referring to). I am at work now, but I will sit down and answer all your questions when I have the proper time to do so.

Thanks!

-Dom

[fordrule]

any word on the COPs and xcal? is it compatable?

since on the xcal/prp you were able to control the spark. am i assuming correctly that this will be the same on the COP also?

[buckeyesvt]

Well for me that is not much of an issue as I have already moved the IMRC, just got so sick of the intermittent way it worked, works every time now :biggrin:

So from reading through your first post the COP harness will connect into the existing wiring that goes to the 2.5l coil pack, is that right?

Sounds like this might be a cool little upgrade.

Now the fact I am in Australia means that I would more than likely source my cam covers from somewhere else other than importing from america. So will the 3.0l cam covers from the Mazda Tribute/Ford Escape work?? Other wise I will have to just pass it on to others in NA MPV land as something they may want to follow up as an option. I think that is the only 3.0l cam covers for the duratec that makes its way to Australia, unless the cam covers in the Jaguar Xtype with the 2.5l engine is the same and has the same water pump location, although that may not affect it just thinking aloud...

Oh dear so many questions, I will stop there to wait for some answers.

Thanks in advance.

The valve covers from the Tribute/Escape should work just fine really. I don't see any issues (water pump is correct) and COP bungs should be there.

-Dom

[buckeyesvt]

is the COP adjustable? lets say you have a xcal2 and a PRP. and you can adjust the ecu? will the cop parameters be in there?

any word on the COPs and xcal? is it compatable?

since on the xcal/prp you were able to control the spark. am i assuming correctly that this will be the same on the COP also?

To answer all 3 questions at once. You cannot adjust spark "duration" with an xcal2. You can affect timing +/- but you can't "adjust" the COP's. Remember, and I'm not hiding anything here - The PCM is controlling the COP's like the Waste Spark system. In order to control them sequentially like the newer engines you will need the later PCM as well - Another huge headache. In laymans terms, it's still firing in batches (1,5 / 4,3 / 2,6 ).

This just cleans up the engine bay, allows the use of a simpler system and reduces the "maintenance" factor of the ignition system itself.

-Dom

[bensenvill]

oh super cool. I would definitely be interested in the harness.

What would cinch the deal would be a list of appropriate valve covers.

[cpapashley]

Thanks for clarifying that about the tribute/escape. That helps greatly.

I understand what you are saying about still operating like a waste spark system, I had thought that would be the case as that is completely limited to the pcm and the way it operates from the crank sensor, and a cam sensor that only knows TDC for No.1 cylinder (or at least that is my understanding).

Now the other question is that the 2.5l intake wont cause any difficulty with the tribute cam covers. I like the idea, and I think a cleaner and more efficient spark system can only be good. Reminds me of 20 years ago, putting an electronic ignition in my car, and never having to change contacts/points again :)

[buckeyesvt]

Thanks for clarifying that about the tribute/escape. That helps greatly.

I understand what you are saying about still operating like a waste spark system, I had thought that would be the case as that is completely limited to the pcm and the way it operates from the crank sensor, and a cam sensor that only knows TDC for No.1 cylinder (or at least that is my understanding).

Now the other question is that the 2.5l intake wont cause any difficulty with the tribute cam covers. I like the idea, and I think a cleaner and more efficient spark system can only be good. Reminds me of 20 years ago, putting an electronic ignition in my car, and never having to change contacts/points again :)

No, they shouldn't as they are low profile like the standard 2.5L/SVT covers.

-Dom

[Foreverfalcon40]

BUMP for a great Mod on performance minded Cougars. On DSM's guys go crazy for these things. COP setup on a DSM Used got at least $250.

[buckeyesvt]

Hmm, never knew that. Interesting. The cost here if you include new coils ($36x6) is $326. This is for V6 engines - That $250 price was that for 4cyl and did it include the coils?

-D

[buckeyesvt]

Since Tom (Warmonger) and Jory (BurritaSVT) have some sort of "issue" with my COP.... I decided to put it to bed. Their statements are the current draw is too high and the spark output could not support a Forced Induction engine. However, I think these two are grasping at straws - As the system actually would put out more energy than the original system due to a few factors.

There are no plug wires. The 1,000ohm per foot of resistance needed for EMI/RFI to play nice with the PCM and radio isn't needed as much. There is very low ohms resistance from the COP unit to the top of the plug. The internal wire is tuned for EMI/RFI - However it is under 6 inches and when tested from end to end it has almost zero resistance.
Every plug gets it's own coil - Not two plug sharing one coil then fed through resistor wires firing though resistor plugs. Think about it, bottleneck and then bottleneck. All to keep EMI crosstalk and RFI interference at bay. EMI can be damaging if not contained - Therefore wires aren't built with solid cores. The shorter the cable, the higher the output. In this case, all plugs have the same exact output. Now #4,#5 and #6 get the same power as #1,#2, and #3.

Before you watch the video - Don't get ooo'd and ahh'd by the spark length itself. Focus on the intensity and color of the spark. Those are 2 true indicators of how well the system performs. The cracking noise does emphasize that a little too much...lol.

COP Video Demo (http://www.fordcontour.org/uploads/COPVideoDemo.wmv)

-Dom

[warmonger]

Since Tom (Warmonger) and Jory (BurritaSVT) have some sort of "issue" with my COP.... I decided to put it to bed. Their statements are the current draw is too high and the spark output could not support a Forced Induction engine.
-Dom

Hey, I never said your setup WAS good or bad. I just asked the questions if you did the calculations and set it up to prevent those issues from happening. Big difference.
I only asked those questions because I went down that road years ago and the long term reliability was questionable to me...and I used the advice of an expert electrical engineer on the topic, I don't profess to know or do that level of electronics myself.
So I haven't been in this thread at all until now, solely because I cannot say one way or the other if your system is good or bad. I won't pick a side on it for that reason either, as far as I'm concerned the jury is still out. Anyone can produce serious sparks from low voltage coils and looking at it visually won't tell me anything unless I have one to compare it to and it won't tell me the energy is high enough. Again, you must measure the impedance of the coils, not resistance byitself to determine the correct load.
You may be lucky already with the appropriate impedance levels, maybe not.
Asking the questions about it and understanding how it works is not the same thing as telling you that your system is bad.

[buckeyesvt]

Ouch, you have friends don't you (Tom)?

Curious, you said you were going to use them a year ago? But you had to seek electrical "advice" and decided against? Sure, using them in the factory configuration that Ford originally wires them from the factory would cause some serious issues - Not to mention it wouldn't run. Tell me truthfully, did you run them Ford's way or a different way? I have a feeling I already know the answer...

I'm beginning to think you have moved beyond elementary in your discussions and more or less answer with 'vacuous' facts. Sure, to make solid points is good. To not take a stand either way is like flapping your lips with no point at all. If that's the case, your participation in this thread is "un-needed".

Thanks,

-Dom

[spridget]

Way to add some spark and ignite a fire! :rofl: COPs are good for that too.

[Adam98SVT]

Way to add some spark and ignite a fire! :rofl: COPs are good for that too.

I do what I can do when I can do it.

Adam

[fordrule]

wow ur shooting urself in the foot. how about send the product to them and have it tested on a force induction car? then you will get an answer on if its compatable or not.

i swear if you too were around eachother i would ask if you too need to kiss or punch .....damn....

[buckeyesvt]

Wow... it's nice to see that you are as clearly unintelligent here, as you are on FCO. Sorry your brain doesn't allow for your own free thoughts.... that you blindly argue for others. There's no question as to why you've been perma-banned from CEG.... probably only a matter of time for here as well.

Who are you talking about? Adam or me?

-Dom

[buckeyesvt]

wow ur shooting urself in the foot. how about send the product to them and have it tested on a force induction car? then you will get an answer on if its compatable or not.

i swear if you too were around eachother i would ask if you too need to kiss or punch .....damn....

Why? They already don't think it will work - Hence they knocked it from the start. I'd rather find an impartial Cougar or Contour owner with FI and install it on their car. At least I know the "results" won't be rigged or the car actually ran before installation. I get it, you can't argue with "god" can you? :evil:

Just because they can't admit that it works - That's ok. It does, if they don't want it -Cool. I'm not a hard sell type of person, but to waffle to everyone else about their recommendations... pathetic. If they have no "experience" with it, then they should be excluded from the topic. I'm not challenging them on turbos am I? I don't play with them and have no idea what their product entails. So should I also be "qualified" to speak about that? That makes alot of sense now doesn't it?:crazy:

Common sense people, common sense! God gave all of us a brain, some just fail to use theirs for anything else but taking up space in their heads. Shooting myself in the foot? Lol, no such thing. I'd be happy to provide them with a harness to test, but seeing their results in other "tests" gives me absolutely no faith in their "results".

-Dom

[fordrule]

well they already say they are building a 3L and it will probally have a turbo kit installed on it. and they are saying that they are taking it to a dyno. send them a kit and have them dyno it before installation and after installation. i would off my car but everyone knows my situation.

[buckeyesvt]

This is where I politely decline to participate in their "project". Since they want me to buy a tune, and clearly have more knowledge than me it shouldn't be a problem for them to figure out how the COP system works and make it work correctly. I mean Tom has a MS in MSE - Cmon, that degree gives him A+ status on literally everything.. Or so he says.

If you wanted to - I would in a heartbeat. Otherwise, no thanks.

-Dom

[BurritaSVT]

This is where I politely decline to participate in their "project". Since they want me to buy a tune, and clearly have more knowledge than me it shouldn't be a problem for them to figure out how the COP system works and make it work correctly. I mean Tom has a MS in MSE - Cmon, that degree gives him A+ status on literally everything.. Or so he says.

If you wanted to - I would in a heartbeat. Otherwise, no thanks.

-Dom

Seriuos Dom is there one post here or on CEG where you did not act like this You take every debate as if we are saying that we are against you. Why do you feel so like we are attacking you because we are skeptical of the load on the pcm. Instead of just answering why it won't are presenting the data you come out name calling and baggering people. How old are you? Do you really have customers acting this way or is it just friends that want a free ride? You seem like one of those friends people would be scared to disagree with because you would have a temper tandrem. We are just like everyone else here is curious to see will this hold up or not hamper their performance in the future. The real problem I know of am I would be more than welcome to show you why I wouldn't is because the coil packs which are used on the mazda 6 go out prematurely regularily. I have many of links of the coil packs and their failure rates which was brought to me by the mazda guys as how we are going to overcome it with once you load down the ignition system with boost.

Now please get back on track with the civil discussions or debates because name calling will get you no where. Joey

[warmonger]

Ouch, you have friends don't you (Tom)?

Curious, you said you were going to use them a year ago? But you had to seek electrical "advice" and decided against? Sure, using them in the factory configuration that Ford originally wires them from the factory would cause some serious issues - Not to mention it wouldn't run. Tell me truthfully, did you run them Ford's way or a different way? I have a feeling I already know the answer...

I'm beginning to think you have moved beyond elementary in your discussions and more or less answer with 'vacuous' facts. Sure, to make solid points is good. To not take a stand either way is like flapping your lips with no point at all. If that's the case, your participation in this thread is "un-needed".

Thanks,

-Dom

Wow, you can't let stuff rest can you. You invited me in with your post. Your mental issue that keeps you from seeing things in the same light as the rest of the world also prevents you from being nice to anyone in it. You feed off conflict and drama and enjoy the mess. I guess you are just plain evil then if all you seek is conflict and distress. I'm pretty much fed up with your drama queen antics but you do know how to prod people, I'll give you credit there. You don't need me to reiterate how this system works or its going to play out. I already "called it" on how you are wiring these coils and I already called all the potential issues as well. They are listed in the post on CEG if anyone wants to read them.
Just keep pretending you know what you are doing. When you can't even tell me all the elements of measuring the impedance of a coil and keep talking about "resistance" then you are telling me you don't really know what you are doing but you are just trying stuff till it works. That's fine but I'd hate to be your customer if your luck doesn't hold out. I'd hate to be the customer stuck on a trip somewhere having to pay the stealership the replacement cost for a Powertrain Control Module because you failed to look at the implications that go along with properly matching the coils to the system. Hopefully you don't screw anyone through your ignorance. Good luck to you.

[warmonger]

Why? They already don't think it will work - Hence they knocked it from the start. I'd rather find an impartial Cougar or Contour owner with FI and install it on their car. At least I know the "results" won't be rigged or the car actually ran before installation. I get it, you can't argue with "god" can you? :evil:

-Dom

If you actually knew what you were doing then you'd know if it would work already, you wouldn't need to test it on FI. If the stock system works on NA and FI then any system matched to the SAME coil driver circuit in the PCM will also work. I hope it does work because I'd hate to see people throwing good money after bad if it doesn't work.

[warmonger]

Seriuos Dom is there one post here or on CEG where you did not act like this You take every debate as if we are saying that we are against you. Why do you feel so like we are attacking you because we are skeptical of the load on the pcm. Instead of just answering why it won't are presenting the data you come out name calling and baggering people. How old are you? Do you really have customers acting this way or is it just friends that want a free ride? You seem like one of those friends people would be scared to disagree with because you would have a temper tandrem. We are just like everyone else here is curious to see will this hold up or not hamper their performance in the future. The real problem I know of am I would be more than welcome to show you why I wouldn't is because the coil packs which are used on the mazda 6 go out prematurely regularily. I have many of links of the coil packs and their failure rates which was brought to me by the mazda guys as how we are going to overcome it with once you load down the ignition system with boost.

Now please get back on track with the civil discussions or debates because name calling will get you no where. Joey
He's just doing it because he's jealous and he's a hater. Anyone with half a brain can read all his posts here and there on CEG and FCO and see how he keeps baiting us so he can trash talk us.
He really is evil. He says I'm uneducated but shows how he hates on people who are "really" educated.....just consider the comment against Rara. :crazy:
Look how much you've done with product design and then he comes and has the gall to tell you you're uneducated just from the way you type?
:crazy:

I guess I'm stupid enough to keep rising to the bait huh?
(Sorry to everyone else)

[Adam98SVT]

If you can tell me why my new account (made it last week sometime to show some pics of my car when i get it in another couple weeks) Adam98SVT was not ever allowed to post/reply/etc on CEG Ill retract my trash talk and appologize on all 3 sites.

Get thicker skin this is real money people are paying for their engines to get built (like me!) and everyone wants the most info possible.

And for the record I never trashed or even commented on CEG, Warmonger, Burritto, etc before last night.

Please point out 1 uniformed or misinformed post on FCO. If I dont know what Im talking about but still try to contribute I fully disclaim that.

Adam

Edit:

He really is evil.

LOL. Dont link FCO or Dom to me or vise versa I just found that site first when I bought my car a year ago and just spent my time there. Im not "fighting anyones battles" lol this isn't Braveheart.

[warmonger]

Here is the device I built with the design help of an electrical engineer that will control any number of coils, 1-10 if you want. This stuff has been done back in 2003. :rolleyes: It integerates with the factory PCM, provides secondary circuit protections so the stock PCM coil drivers do not get blown. It also provides added noise reduction to prevent false spikes on the coils and reduce EMI.

This device can integrate with MSD ignition components, GReddy eManage and eManage ultimate, and pretty much any factory ford coils.
The picture you see here is integrated into the Ford factory harness and it is placed under the dash to protect it from the elements. The wiring goes out to the ignition harness where you cut the signal wires and wire this device inline. With this device NONE Of the coils is directly connected to the factory PCM. It interprets the timing signals directly and fires the coils progressively.
On top of that, I ran this system on my Turbocharged 3L before I did tuning with SCT products so I KNOW it works.

So don't talk to me about this crap like you know what you are doing because it has become painfully obvious that you are like a monkey playing with lincoln logs when it comes to electronics. It is FAR superior to the method you are using. I does not mean your way won't work but again, I like to make sure things work right and will continue to work right long after the car is gone.

http://progressive.playstream.com/burritasvt/progressive/picture_056.jpg

[fordrule]

I am sorry i was unaware of the proplems that was on the mazda forum. can you please post the links tom/joey. i would like to read it and it would be pertiant to this thread. I was also unaware of the post ceg drama. I didn't see the threads on ceg on them also. plus i haven't really checked. I am not trying to pour gasoline on a fire, i am just going for the facts. no disrespect to tom,joeyor dom

thanks
joey

[Foreverfalcon40]

Hmm, never knew that. Interesting. The cost here if you include new coils ($36x6) is $326. This is for V6 engines - That $250 price was that for 4cyl and did it include the coils?

-D

Includes everything even the plate to replace the spark plug cover.

Interested in making one for a DSM?

[warmonger]

If you have additional doubts, here is the other product that I used to offer for the contour guys, back in 2001-2.

This device controls the sunroof through the remote control so that while you approach the car you can open and close it through the keyless entry system. It also provided one-touch open capability for the sunroof with interuption.

The two devices next to each other show the prototype board and then the ultra refined version with surface mount components that I went to afterwards.
I sold these for $75 each and they are still out there working. There was at least one person at springzing that had theirs on the car and was demonstrating how it worked. How does 6 years of durability and zero failures sound to you?

http://progressive.playstream.com/burritasvt/progressive/srm_old1.jpg

This picture just shows the backside of the control module and the sense of scale it has. Purely to show you the quality of the electronics I WOULD choose to build if I wanted to put it back into production.

http://progressive.playstream.com/burritasvt/progressive/module2.jpg

[warmonger]

Now honestly, I think I've shown enough of my qualifications.
I've been around here long enough to demonstrate that I know what I'm doing.
I freely admit I'm no electrical engineer but that was the major I was pursuing at
first. I know enough to know when I need expert help.

Now if you can stop the personal attacks, snide comments, belittling references, etc. this place would be much more peaceful!!

[warmonger]

If you can tell me why my new account (made it last week sometime to show some pics of my car when i get it in another couple weeks) Adam98SVT was not ever allowed to post/reply/etc on CEG Ill retract my trash talk and appologize on all 3 sites.

Get thicker skin this is real money people are paying for their engines to get built (like me!) and everyone wants the most info possible.

And for the record I never trashed or even commented on CEG, Warmonger, Burritto, etc before last night.

Please point out 1 uniformed or misinformed post on FCO. If I dont know what Im talking about but still try to contribute I fully disclaim that.

Adam

Edit:

He really is evil.

LOL. Dont link FCO or Dom to me or vise versa I just found that site first when I bought my car a year ago and just spent my time there. Im not "fighting anyones battles" lol this isn't Braveheart.

Adam, I don't know anything about the account access issues on CEG as I don't have any rights to deal with that anyway.
Joey or I can mention it to WorldTour and see what happened.

I must have missed your posts because I haven't responded to anything you've said. I've only responded to the deliberate references and attacks on my integrity.

[wadespencer99]

Ok...this is like daytime television!

http://www.soaps.com/images/news/747_1_8016.jpg

Can you three take your petty *****ing somewhere else, maybe to PMs?

"Dom" - I don't know who you are, but I really appreciate you joining here just to stir up drama and insult people. Knowledge or not, you are one arrogant mofo that needs an attitude adjustment. You don't have the right to talk to anyone the way you do, and if I see more personal attacks coming from your keyboard, the strikes will start getting handed out, capiche?

Adam - If you have nothing to do but jump on bandwagons and whine about CEG, stay out of this thread.

[LostRacer]

Ok...this is like daytime television!

http://www.soaps.com/images/news/747_1_8016.jpg

Can you three take your petty *****ing somewhere else, maybe to PMs?

"Dom" - I don't know who you are, but I really appreciate you joining here just to stir up drama and insult people. Knowledge or not, you are one arrogant mofo that needs an attitude adjustment. You don't have the right to talk to anyone the way you do, and if I see more personal attacks coming from your keyboard, the strikes will start getting handed out, capiche?

Adam - If you have nothing to do but jump on bandwagons and whine about CEG, stay out of this thread.


While you're at it, you don't happen to have any Bon Jovi do you?

:ty:
:rofl:

[buckeyesvt]

Ok...this is like daytime television!

http://www.soaps.com/images/news/747_1_8016.jpg

Can you three take your petty *****ing somewhere else, maybe to PMs?

"Dom" - I don't know who you are, but I really appreciate you joining here just to stir up drama and insult people. Knowledge or not, you are one arrogant mofo that needs an attitude adjustment. You don't have the right to talk to anyone the way you do, and if I see more personal attacks coming from your keyboard, the strikes will start getting handed out, capiche?

Adam - If you have nothing to do but jump on bandwagons and whine about CEG, stay out of this thread.

Hey, keep the trolls out of this thread (which I started) and there shouldn't be any problems should there? Trolls meaning people who have no "facts" and randomly troll to stir up stuff. You apply that to whom you feel necessary - I'm not running the show.

I don't have the right? Ok, then look inside your own house before complaining to me I'm starting it myself. Two to tango correct? That should explain alot without even mentioning one name.

-Dom

[wadespencer99]

Hey, keep the trolls out of this thread (which I started) and there shouldn't be any problems should there? Trolls meaning people who have no "facts" and randomly troll to stir up stuff. You apply that to whom you feel necessary - I'm not running the show.

I don't have the right? Ok, then look inside your own house before complaining to me I'm starting it myself. Two to tango correct? That should explain alot without even mentioning one name.

-Dom

I don't see anyone else spewing out insults except you. You posted up your new mod in a public forum, so expect feedback. If you don't want the feed back, start a webpage. Something tells me that if it were anyone except Warmonger and BurritaSVT giving the feedback, it wouldn't be a problem.

Personal attacks aren't tolerated here. If you want to have a civil discussion about your mods, that's fine, but stop the personal attacks. That is your last warning.

Keep in mind two of the things you what you agreed to when you signed up to be a member of this forum:


All posts must be civil, friendly, and not contain any profanity or references to profanity
Moderators have a free reign here. If they don't like it, it's toast

[cpapashley]

Here is the device I built with the design help of an electrical engineer that will control any number of coils, 1-10 if you want. This stuff has been done back in 2003. :rolleyes: It integerates with the factory PCM, provides secondary circuit protections so the stock PCM coil drivers do not get blown. It also provides added noise reduction to prevent false spikes on the coils and reduce EMI.

This device can integrate with MSD ignition components, GReddy eManage and eManage ultimate, and pretty much any factory ford coils.
The picture you see here is integrated into the Ford factory harness and it is placed under the dash to protect it from the elements. The wiring goes out to the ignition harness where you cut the signal wires and wire this device inline. With this device NONE Of the coils is directly connected to the factory PCM. It interprets the timing signals directly and fires the coils progressively.
On top of that, I ran this system on my Turbocharged 3L before I did tuning with SCT products so I KNOW it works.

So don't talk to me about this crap like you know what you are doing because it has become painfully obvious that you are like a monkey playing with lincoln logs when it comes to electronics. It is FAR superior to the method you are using. I does not mean your way won't work but again, I like to make sure things work right and will continue to work right long after the car is gone.

http://progressive.playstream.com/burritasvt/progressive/picture_056.jpg

....now I would buy one of these tomorrow....but I thought you said there wasn't any for sale.....:confused:

[buckeyesvt]

Here is the device I built with the design help of an electrical engineer that will control any number of coils, 1-10 if you want. This stuff has been done back in 2003. :rolleyes:


Where's the beef George? If you made this in 2003 and sold one (to yourself) give yourself a whopping pat on the back cap'n. There is NO WAY you were holding onto this for 3 years and no one noticed. You are a businessman correct? All that work and no marketing? You would've sold the daylights out of COP if you could've - Why not now? What's different right now? Lose the edge? Competition? That device does nothing more or less than an EDIS module - and with less efficiency. An EDIS can control spark without a PCM installed (like on Carbureted engines). That module was used on COP engines and then integrated into the Ford PCM. Would you care to enlighten me on how my system will fail? When? MTBF? Something - pulling figures out of the air isn't acceptable - Make a statement, back it up with fact. Make a statement and back it up with air - Go home.


This device can integrate with MSD ignition components, GReddy eManage and eManage ultimate, and pretty much any factory ford coils.
The picture you see here is integrated into the Ford factory harness and it is placed under the dash to protect it from the elements. The wiring goes out to the ignition harness where you cut the signal wires and wire this device inline. With this device NONE Of the coils is directly connected to the factory PCM. It interprets the timing signals directly and fires the coils progressively.
On top of that, I ran this system on my Turbocharged 3L before I did tuning with SCT products so I KNOW it works.


Most of those engine management units interecept the crank / cam signals and provide their own "spark control" to the coils. Why would you want ANOTHER box under the dash when it's redundant at best? So I gather this will work on your turbo but my idea won't. Now we're getting somewhere.. I see how this argument is taking shape. Perhaps if I didn't know electronics and EEC's for that matter I would be a little more quiet - However tell me this one thing. If your "device" controls the coils - It's basically standing in line in front of the PCM and then redistributing the signal to the coil pack(s). Since there is no way to physically adjust timing on the engines this would require a software "patch" to operate correctly right? You would need to program the PCM with spark values that aren't effected by latency and trigger response since the EEC's original signals are being routed and reprocessed through your "device". All that for what? I have to ask.. your idea looks like I went to radio shack on a bender and went clepto on my kitchen table with my soldering iron. I'm the "monkey playing with lincoln logs"? Hehe... that's a good one.


So don't talk to me about this crap like you know what you are doing because it has become painfully obvious that you are like a monkey playing with lincoln logs when it comes to electronics. It is FAR superior to the method you are using. I does not mean your way won't work but again, I like to make sure things work right and will continue to work right long after the car is gone.


Far superior? To whom? The cap'n (you)? Ohh, I'm sorry I guess the world + dog needs your idea instead of mine because YOU built it and say it's better. :rolleyes: You sound a little sore Tom, is the milk in your Wheaties a little yellow or something?

-Dom

[cpapashley]

OK I am now confused about that last post, that system that Tom made was for when there was no SCT flash device available to alter the PCM parameters within the vehicle, such things as timing and injection duration etc. Tom pioneered the use of the greddy with a local manufactured ford based vehicle and also managed to come up with something that could alter the timing through the greddy emanage.

My understanding was that then the sct came out and the need to look at this was made a little redundant at the time...maybe I missed something somewhere, but my needs are that I have a pcm that has no "unlock key" and I am awaiting the install of a greddy so I can get some control over these aspects.

I was not aware that the cop system could then allow me to simply wire up my greddy and allow me to alter ignition timing. I know this is way off topic. But my needs are slightly different to many others, hence my surprise at this item being shown.

Is what you are saying DOM that having these COP's, somehow will not fry the resistors in the emanage?? I am way beyond my understanding here....??

[warmonger]

OK I am now confused about that last post, that system that Tom made was for when there was no SCT flash device available to alter the PCM parameters within the vehicle, such things as timing and injection duration etc. Tom pioneered the use of the greddy with a local manufactured ford based vehicle and also managed to come up with something that could alter the timing through the greddy emanage.

My understanding was that then the sct came out and the need to look at this was made a little redundant at the time...maybe I missed something somewhere, but my needs are that I have a pcm that has no "unlock key" and I am awaiting the install of a greddy so I can get some control over these aspects.

I was not aware that the cop system could then allow me to simply wire up my greddy and allow me to alter ignition timing. I know this is way off topic. But my needs are slightly different to many others, hence my surprise at this item being shown.

Is what you are saying DOM that having these COP's, somehow will not fry the resistors in the emanage?? I am way beyond my understanding here....??

You are correct on most counts. There was no tuning solution available to the private user back then. I used a Greddy Emanage and hooked up the timing control to the engine and I burned the emanage out. :rofl:
So I started exploring why. The stock pcm fires the coils directly out of the pcm, not with a sub-module like you find on Chevy, Toyota, and older cars. THe old cars used a low power signal from the PCM to fire the coil drive circuits and the eManage was designed to intercept the signal and then put its own signal out to fire the coil drivers.
Well since Ford integrated it it could not be intercepted without going into the pcm itself.
This device above intercepted the high power signal from the ford PCM, converted and filtered it for the emanage or any other device like MSD, and then took the output of the timing control device and put it BACK into a format that would fire the coils. It would fire stock or aftermarket coils up to as many as you needed to stack.

So yes, this information has been up and you can search the web and find old posts on my old website and instruction manuals. Hundreds of people over the years have copied all the information or emailed me on all the details. I built two devices, one I still have and one I sold for a guy doing a custom setup in california. I still have all the PM's in my CEG account about it for proof by the way, dated and everything.

I told you they weren't available because I'm not going to produce them for people since the advent of SCT has pretty much made any of the attempts at secondary control obsolete.

[buckeyesvt]

OK I am now confused about that last post, that system that Tom made was for when there was no SCT flash device available to alter the PCM parameters within the vehicle, such things as timing and injection duration etc. Tom pioneered the use of the greddy with a local manufactured ford based vehicle and also managed to come up with something that could alter the timing through the greddy emanage.

My understanding was that then the sct came out and the need to look at this was made a little redundant at the time...maybe I missed something somewhere, but my needs are that I have a pcm that has no "unlock key" and I am awaiting the install of a greddy so I can get some control over these aspects.

I was not aware that the cop system could then allow me to simply wire up my greddy and allow me to alter ignition timing. I know this is way off topic. But my needs are slightly different to many others, hence my surprise at this item being shown.

Is what you are saying DOM that having these COP's, somehow will not fry the resistors in the emanage?? I am way beyond my understanding here....??

Perhaps if I knew you were going to use it with an Emanage - I would've answered differently. No, this COP setup will change nothing if Emanage requires different impedance of input. I have no "module" to convert anything - This is a harness to convert - Not a separate module. If the Stock EDIS output from the PCM to drive the OEM coil fried the Emanage unit - Nothing changes here.

-Dom

[warmonger]

I understand. I'm just telling you that I test fired it with coil packs and cop's, I've got a bunch of them laying around from swaps. I wanted to run the COPs individually but without switching the PCM they just end up as a fancy wastespark method. With my method it was easy once the device design was figured out because I had six separate coil drivers, one for each coil and could fire them with no danger to overcurrent or reduced energy to the spark. The coil impedance with the spark plug was matched to the coil driving circuit. By tying the input filter wires directly to the output driver wires I could eliminate the emanage or any other controlling device and just fire them direct from the pcm; in fact we had to do this to test the circuit with the minimal number of variables before introducing the eManage into the system to actually control the timing output.
This is why I'm telling you that I REALLY have been there doing this type of work but to me it wasn't worth it to get a somewhat costly +/- 20* of timing control once the SCT system became easily available.
If it is worth it to you to remove all the plug wires and switch coils, and as I said if you've worked it out so that the coils are loading the pcm correctly so you don't have long term issues, then I'd think it would be fine.

[buckeyesvt]

I REALLY believe you...lol. YOU DON'T NEED TO CONVINCE ME...:rofl:

I never doubted you did, however your EE didn't have much input on how you wired it did he :biggrin:

-Dom

[cpapashley]

OK thanks for clarifying that one for me Tom and Dom...

Now question for you tom, I will pm you on it...

...and Dom, I still like the idea of the COP's only from an efficiency view point, and really just to show off on my forum of the new toy I have.....:rolleyes:. My coils will probably need replacing in the next year as it is the original unit, hence the reason I am looking at these.

Just let us all know when it is available.

[buckeyesvt]

OK thanks for clarifying that one for me Tom and Dom...

Now question for you tom, I will pm you on it...

...and Dom, I still like the idea of the COP's only from an efficiency view point, and really just to show off on my forum of the new toy I have.....:rolleyes:. My coils will probably need replacing in the next year as it is the original unit, hence the reason I am looking at these.

Just let us all know when it is available.

Will do. I have some "testing" partners that I will be working with soon and get some initial harnesses out there to gauge installation and get feedback on their operation.

-Dom

[Adam98SVT]

Will do. I have some "testing" partners that I will be working with soon and get some initial harnesses out there to gauge installation and get feedback on their operation.

-Dom

Yeh, like "will Adam make it back to Naples" :rofl:

Adam

[DemonSVT]

Sure is a lot on drama over a modification that will make no difference in the performance department. It's not like COP will generate any advantage over the stock DIS setup. Well other then it costs $250+ and you have 6 coils to fail instead of just one $50 unit. It's not like the Ford COP setup is not without it's problems. (i.e. 5.4L failures!)

By the way the stock coil can perform to a hair above 10,000 rpm before you get coil runoff or voltage drop. Even I have not spun my engine that high.
My $100 Magnecors have over 6 years on them and are still flawless. (also lifetime warranty) I also do not remember the last time I looked at my engine bay and said, "damn those plug wires are a mess." I wonder how many people honestly do??? I guess those folks can drop $250+ on this very minor aesthetic mod. Oh yeah you need to buy new valve covers and fab a wiring harness (or pay for one?) if you are not swapping to a 3L engine that came with COP.

The COP debate was all the rage 5 years ago. Practicality won out over the bling factor since there was no performance difference. However some people are all about the bling so your mileage may vary. Uniqueness is cool.

[cpapashley]

Uniqueness is cool.

....and that is the key as time goes on....cars and systems become old...they may work well and faultlessly, and the coils on the 3.0l MPV's have given a mighty lot of problems, however largely through design which trapped moisture, which has now been remedied, and the new coils are giving faultless and lengthy service....

Sooooo my vote as I look forward to keeping my PV for a number of years is for the cool uniqueness....:cool:

[buckeyesvt]

Sure is a lot on drama over a modification that will make no difference in the performance department. It's not like COP will generate any advantage over the stock DIS setup. Well other then it costs $250+ and you have 6 coils to fail instead of just one $50 unit. It's not like the Ford COP setup is not without it's problems. (i.e. 5.4L failures!)

By the way the stock coil can perform to a hair above 10,000 rpm before you get coil runoff or voltage drop. Even I have not spun my engine that high.
My $100 Magnecors have over 6 years on them and are still flawless. (also lifetime warranty) I also do not remember the last time I looked at my engine bay and said, "damn those plug wires are a mess." I wonder how many people honestly do??? I guess those folks can drop $250+ on this very minor aesthetic mod. Oh yeah you need to buy new valve covers and fab a wiring harness (or pay for one?) if you are not swapping to a 3L engine that came with COP.

The COP debate was all the rage 5 years ago. Practicality won out over the bling factor since there was no performance difference. However some people are all about the bling so your mileage may vary. Uniqueness is cool.

There was no drama over it, someone felt like his toes got smashed and squawked. Ohh well.

This is an upgrade, not necessarily for performance (I already stated that) however there are positive benefits.

The reason COP was the rage was because it was a cool idea. Then no one could get it to work...the glamourous idea died. I jumped into it now and worked it out. Now I'm offering it to everyone else "if they are interested" hence the interest post.

Any other questions?

-Dom

[DemonSVT]

Like I mentioned I most definitely can not deny the cool factor. There is nothing like having a one of a kind or close to it in the car community.

BTW Tom had/has a working setup. He even offered to build me one for cost when I was doing my 3L project. I opted to stick with the stock setup for simplicity and practicality. But then like I have reinterated many time before I am more go then show. I spent my money elsewhere by choice.
So this does offer another choice to folks but I just wanted to make sure the fact was known this was purely a "coolness" modification and not one for performance or maintenance. I mean it is not like the setup has been longevity tested for durability so I personally would not state it is an improvement in reliability when no actual data is available to back up that statement.

[buckeyesvt]

Like I mentioned I most definitely can not deny the cool factor. There is nothing like having a one of a kind or close to it in the car community.

BTW Tom had/has a working setup. He even offered to build me one for cost when I was doing my 3L project. I opted to stick with the stock setup for simplicity and practicality. But then like I have reinterated many time before I am more go then show. I spent my money elsewhere by choice.
So this does offer another choice to folks but I just wanted to make sure the fact was known this was purely a "coolness" modification and not one for performance or maintenance. I mean it is not like the setup has been longevity tested for durability so I personally would not state it is an improvement in reliability when no actual data is available to back up that statement.

Your statement about performance is slightly "opinionated" when the COP's eliminate the coil wires themselves. That is a performance adder, getting rid of the resistor wires that so many people have had issues with (FRW..etc). I'm not going to get on a soapbox and talk about how this system is "superior", that's silly. But look at the design and all that it replaces and tell me it does "zero" for anything except look cool - That's a tad shallow looking there isn't it? Taurus engines have them from 04+, that's how many engines? I'm not going to research figures but last time I checked that wasn't a problem area on those engines. Unless you can provide failure data on Taurus / Sable Duratecs with bad COP's, I would leave that part out of your arguement.

Tom's box I can put money on wouldn't run the COPs correctly. He mastered an interface box, and all his theories are flawed. The factory DIS coil burned up his Emanage, not the EEC. If COP burned up his Emanage we would come to the same conclusion. However - He never burned up an EEC with COP - Therefore all this "conjecture" is meaningless unless we have an actual "failure". Right? Are you betting it will? From Tom and your tone, I feel that is what you are getting at. Let's see 'if" we can cross that road first and not start talking about it now like it's happened. I think my new lightbulb I just screwed into my bedroom ceiling fan will fail soon... (I'm sure it will but if that takes 5 years I don't think I would be disappointed - same with the COP packs).

-Dom

[Adam98SVT]

I have my car at Doms shop for a 3L install and he finished the COP solution during my build. He offered it to me for no charge which of course I took him up on. FWIW.

Adam

[DemonSVT]

Resistor wires? Explain yourself here and for reference wires carry high voltage current in a field and not through the core of the actual wires. As long as the wire does not bleed current (i.e. works properly) it is basically a zero loss transfer. (proven fact BTW) When I say zero loss I do mean negligible loss and in equal to any electrical field transfer. (i.e the same as the direct ignition boots used by COP for instance)

Also it is a proven fact that if the spark plug is fired on time and ignites the fuel mixture then it's job is accomplished regardless if it is done with a match or million dollar fiber optic setup. (yes I'm being a bit facetious for a point) Why is that? Any extra amount of current is wasted as in makes no difference. Now extra current can make a difference if a spark can not be generated because the cylinder pressure and wave front is too great. However this is not the case in any setup you are going to be able to create with about any engine combination of which one can honestly afford to build. 700WHP engines are using the stock Ford DIS coil. (see SHO's and they use the same coil design)

So no one can say this change in ignition system will generate any performance gain over a properly working stock setup. Period. Reliability. I doubt it personally but then no one has data on it either way so it's a push at best. Cost. Stock wins here. Coolness factor. COP hands down! 'nuff said really.

[fordrule]

anyone do this mod? or interested in it? i was contimplating it since i was thinking of changing to 04/05 valve covers with the improved pcv system

[spridget]

I'll be doing this mod when I swap my stock '03 3L for a tweaked '04 3L.