Dyno/Tuning issues... [Archive]

AndyMan

07-21-2007, 02:00 PM

I had the 3L motor for bout a month now and i was age to get an Xcal2 and plugged it up and loaded up the tune.... The car runs so much more smoothly now since the ECU no longer is turning on the IMRC because i have no secondaries. But i am still feeling some type of restriction somewhere and i just can't find out where...
here are the graphs...

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j233/Andyman4/Horsepower.jpg

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j233/Andyman4/Power-AirFuel.jpg

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j233/Andyman4/Torque.jpg

I know i know..... :( not what u were expecting... but we have to stop at 6K rpm do to fear something was going to blow... The car is still running lean.. The car still surges in the low RPM range... and i am thinking its my exhaust set up.. i still have the stock cat on with 2 and a quater from cat and Y pipe. I know one of the exhaust gaskets need to be replaced....

I am open to any suggestions.

GrandMasterKhan

07-21-2007, 03:37 PM

wow your TQ curve is flat as a table! It looks like your avg is about 190wtq which is actually pretty good. (edit: whoops that flat line is the A/f ratio)

199whp is also very good. I can see they stopped @ 6k. So you definilitly have some untapped potental lurking @ 7k

did you get the A/F readout? Without the a/f chart the dyno chart itself only tells half the story.

AndyMan

07-21-2007, 04:37 PM

yeah the air fuel ration table is on the right side.... its on the second graph.

GrandMasterKhan

07-21-2007, 10:22 PM

ah i see so that was the A/f ratio which is flat not the tq. lol silly me.

looks like your running almost 16:1 a/f ratio. Yeah so your still running lean as hell. I'd be easy on driving it. Your running 93 right?

AndyMan

07-22-2007, 01:32 AM

sadly before i came up to get the injectors in i fulled her up on 87 then we put the injectors in. Its bout time to fill her up again

Rikenbomb

07-22-2007, 01:53 AM

What are the specs on your motor?

Was the place you got your car dyno'd not able to tune it for you?

AndyMan

07-22-2007, 09:50 AM

my tune was from Natulius performance with an Xcal... i told them my mods to the 3L and they sent the tune accordingly...
I went to the dyno shop because i wanted to get a graph reading but they only speicalize in imports so they can't really do nothing for me.
The 3L has SVT intakes,
CAI
headers & y pipe with stock cat still / 2.25 catback
svt cams
3L PnP heads
DMD
clutch and lightweight flywheel..
and thats bout it.

cpapashley

07-22-2007, 08:36 PM

Which size injectors are on the car?

If it is running so lean, maybe there is a sizing problem with the injectors....maybe tune done for 24 and you only have 19lb injectors ???

AndyMan

07-22-2007, 10:16 PM

i am tune for the 19pounders.. and i have 19 pounders... i guess another way to run richer would be a change is spark plugs and wires... stock wires and autolite double platiums...
recommend a change? :shrug:

wadespencer99

07-22-2007, 10:47 PM

If Tom did the tune, have you asked him?

GrandMasterKhan

07-22-2007, 11:03 PM

87 :banghead:

Topik

07-23-2007, 11:35 AM

To be honest, 93 is needed indeed, and also if this eb3 place works out, you should get tuned there andy. Nothing beats live dyno tuning. PERIOD. Im just waiting on two upgrades before I get tuned.

Blackcoog

07-23-2007, 12:23 PM

AndyMan

07-23-2007, 02:34 PM

actually Tom was out for that time and i had his partner Joey do the tune for me :)
They both did look at the chart and strongly recommend changing the plugs and wires...
Now my question to that is..
What does someone recommend to run more richer on spark plug wires and spark plugs themselves?????

Blackcoog

07-23-2007, 03:01 PM

Plugs and wires aren't going to make your car run richer. Bad plugs and wires will show the spikes you have on your graph but if anything I would think a new set of plugs and wires would burn the fuel better meaning it would be slightly leaner not richer. If your plugs are fouled they wouldn't fire correctly so there would be left over fuel.

Go with some autolite double platinums and a new set stock wires.

AndyMan

07-23-2007, 06:41 PM

Go with some autolite double platinums and a new set stock wires.

but thats whats exactly in the engine now.... :confused:

GrandMasterKhan

07-23-2007, 11:15 PM

Andy, i have a set of new OEM plug wires sitting in a box.

cpapashley

07-24-2007, 05:48 AM

Definitely get with Tom and tweek your tune to get it back in the correct range. I wouldn't drive the car with it running that lean. You want to be in the 12.7 range. I'm surprised it wasn't pinging on the dyno.

Pinging? I would have thought exploding would be the result of a lean out to that extent?? I am mystified, why your engine is in one piece after a dyno run that lean at WOT. These engines must be mighty tuff....

AndyMan

07-24-2007, 08:05 AM

Dan built one hell of an engine :thumbsup:

Blackcoog

07-24-2007, 08:34 AM

but thats whats exactly in the engine now.... :confused:

Maybe the wires are worn out? :confused:

AndyMan

07-24-2007, 08:38 AM

well doesn't hurt to check again... since the dyno run, i have been running the 93 octane... i need to get an air fuel ration gauge to to see hows it going now....

Rikenbomb

07-24-2007, 07:14 PM

Have you checked for a vacuum leak?

GrandMasterKhan

07-24-2007, 07:36 PM

we are going to take a look over his car tonight and try and isolate any possible causes for his extreme lean condition.

I get a feeling it may have to do with MAF positionment or a tune which does not properly take into account the length of his CAI.

we'll also double check all connections and the UIM for leaks so we can narrow down if he does indeed have a vaccume leak or not. We did afterall have to remove his uim to install the injectors. :/

Rikenbomb

07-24-2007, 09:35 PM

I hope the issue gets found and resolved!

GrandMasterKhan

07-25-2007, 11:45 AM

Wide Open Throttle @ 3000rpms. Low speed. CAI system.
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j233/Andyman4/wot3000rpmswot40005500.jpg

Highway cruising then Wide Open Throttle @ till 6k rpms. CAI
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j233/Andyman4/wot6krpms.jpg

Wide Open throttle with Shortram intake.
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j233/Andyman4/shortramwot.jpg

I really didnt know what values to compare. IF anyone has some specific values to datalog please let me know. Keep in mind the Snap Shot was taken after the throttle was released so the guages @ the top will not reflect actual WOT conditions. The Graph will show O2 reads and AIrflow rate. Also note IAT temps. 15degrees cooler with CAI :cool:

spridget

07-25-2007, 02:35 PM

there's no way that AFR is correct. Was that done with a tail pipe sniffer?

AndyMan

07-25-2007, 04:33 PM

no, this was done with the Live link plug in threw a laptop.

cpapashley

07-25-2007, 06:15 PM

no, this was done with the Live link plug in threw a laptop.

So the readout of those volts for the o2 sensor is....from a wideband? which type? is the parameter conversion of the volts--> a/f ratio correct?

GrandMasterKhan

07-25-2007, 06:34 PM

cpapashley

07-26-2007, 06:08 AM

that readaout is the xcal2 reading of the OEM o2 sensors. The blue and green line show bank1 and bank2 at WOT the voltage for each 02 sensor is around .85

I do not know if this screen is actually diplaying a/f ratio or not. The chart scale on the right is for airFlow per min

From memory, if it is the oem o2 sensors they will show something above .5 for rich and below .5 for lean. Or another way to put it is....

on full acceleration they should show above .5 for below 14.7 a/f ratio (ie rich) and.....

below .5 for above 14.7 a/f ratio (ie lean).

So looking at those graph's, there does not appear to be any scale for these voltages, but by their behaviour I would say that when the car is cruising it is in closed loop (and the voltages are swinging between high and low to maintain the 14.7 a/f ratio). When WOT is present the voltages seem to indicate a higher voltage (rich or below 14.7).

I don't have any experience with this but I would have thought that the voltage would go down quicker to indicate it was leaning out as you backed off, but I guess that would depend if you backed off slowly or just took your foot of the accelerator.

(oh how I wish I had the money to put the greddy on my car :(, life has not been kind for the past number of months as far as finances...)

anyway any other comments on these graphs at all.

AndyMan

07-26-2007, 02:07 PM

i really don't know what to do now... :(
at max... the only true thing i should do now is buy an expensive wideband 02 air fuel ratio gauge so i can truly know what i am running at.

GrandMasterKhan

07-26-2007, 06:16 PM

cpapashley,

in that case his car is actually not running lean at all. The 02 sensors indicated .84-.9 @ wot. So he is running rich like he supposed to.

Apparently Andyman has an exhaust leak which caused the sniffer to read lean. a/f issue solved.

Now we just need to have some fine tuning done for the sub 3000rpm range to smooth out the powerband. because it is very rough until 3k.

cpapashley

07-29-2007, 05:19 PM

FastCougar

07-29-2007, 06:48 PM

That would make sense, so the tune below 3000 is that adjusted for the lack of the secondaries??Exactly ... think about this for a minute and it will make sense:

1) The ECU is expecting secondaries present and as such, has timing and fuel tables calibrated accordingly.

2) The engine in the car has no secondaries, so, it's essentially running double the air through through the heads below IMRC opening point at all times.

3) Becase of #1 & #2 above, the car is getting twice as much air than it's expecting. Since it's not at WOT, it's reading off the MAF, O2's and other sensors and adjusting for more fuel as it detects this. This causes the erratic behaviour below roughly 3,500 RPM.

4) Once it gets above the IMRC activation point, the fuel & air tables more accurately reflect what's going on and thus the power and better drivability.

AndyMan

07-29-2007, 07:55 PM

But when i got the tune.. everything that had to do with the IMRC is now turned off... there is no IMRC activity at all.... how can one tune this to run smoothly with the extra air? :confused:

StealthyWeasel

07-29-2007, 09:46 PM

From what I understand, you need more timing down under the curve.

AndyMan

07-30-2007, 11:28 AM

if this were a mechincal error somewhere in the exhaust... what could make it read out like this??? :confused:

cpapashley

07-31-2007, 06:05 PM

But when i got the tune.. everything that had to do with the IMRC is now turned off... there is no IMRC activity at all.... how can one tune this to run smoothly with the extra air? :confused:

Just turning off the imrc does not mean the fuel tables are correct. There is a lot of parameters to consider like throttle position, air flow and the resultant fuel all need to be right add to this the timing like stealthy said and I think there is a need to check everything under 3500 rpm.

GrandMasterKhan

08-01-2007, 01:31 AM

so we did some more datalogging based on some information we gathered over on CEG.

turns out this puppy pulls hard all way to 8k. So far it runs pretty well above 4k still. The airflow begins to drop off @ 7300rpms. So there is not much of a point to rev it past that. This 3.0 will be a monster when he gets it completely tuned.

cpapashley

08-01-2007, 06:17 AM

AndyMan

08-01-2007, 09:15 AM

and now supposeivly i am running rich now... :crazy:.....
so 87 is to lean...
and 93 is to rich...

does anyone reccommend 89 octane????? :confused:

i ordered a wideband air fuel ration gauge.. that should let me know for sure what to do :)

Edit:... ALSO... i belive i am having injector problems... maybe one of the injectors aren't plugged or clipped in all the way..... because the exhaust sounds extremly louder and engine sakes alittle...
only reason i think its an injector is because when we put the 19s in... the exhaust was loud and shook alittle.. then Kenny made sure it was clipped and shakeyness and loudness went away... now its back.. and i am thinking its not the injectors... :(

FastCougar

08-01-2007, 11:06 AM

The octane of the fuel you run has no bearing on you running rich or lean. Where did you get that idea?

The volume of fuel vs. the volume of air determines your rich/lean status ... nothing else.

AndyMan

08-01-2007, 01:14 PM

last nights graph indicated that the car was running rich.... as supposed to when i had it dyno'd... the car was lean. At that time i had 87 octane in the car... :shrug:

Blackcoog

08-02-2007, 10:32 AM

last nights graph indicated that the car was running rich.... as supposed to when i had it dyno'd... the car was lean. At that time i had 87 octane in the car... :shrug:

You should really have just went to a shop that would tune the car on the dyno so the air fuel would be dead on. A mail order tune no matter how good the tuner is will never be spot on.

Topik

08-02-2007, 01:32 PM

You should really have just went to a shop that would tune the car on the dyno so the air fuel would be dead on. A mail order tune no matter how good the tuner is will never be spot on.

A-****ing-men

AndyMan

08-02-2007, 03:34 PM

i would if there was a place around me that specilizes in the SCT. At most all i can do here is take it to a dyno and have them dyno it... thats all they can do for me as they don;t mess with domistics...
There is a SCT dealer bout an hour away from be but he told me " we won't touch it" because i told him i have a different motor with the same ECU. :(
(mostly works on mustangs)

There is nothing else as for as tunning that i can do from my point but order it and send datalog information back and forth until the tune is okay.

Topik

08-02-2007, 03:53 PM

the place here andy said they can do it. Reputable shop. I mean yea you gotta come back to the ol VA but they can dyno and tune it for you.

AndyMan

08-02-2007, 07:36 PM

hmm... that doesn't sound like a bad idea....
so its just as simple to bring them the Xcal2 and let them tune it off that :confused:

looks like i will be seeing u guys soon agian :thumbsup:

cpapashley

08-02-2007, 10:00 PM

last nights graph indicated that the car was running rich.... as supposed to when i had it dyno'd... the car was lean. At that time i had 87 octane in the car... :shrug:

That exhaust leak, would have resulted in the reading, it is as originally thought you are definitely not lean by the datalogs, and rich is certainly the way these beasts seem to be a lot of the time until tuned.

Just a question Andyman, I presume there is no cel codes coming up when the engine is running rough.

GrandMasterKhan

08-02-2007, 10:34 PM

Andy, under no circumstances should you ever run anything other than 93.

Under WOT your car runs rich which is normal. In fact is much safer to run rich than to run lean. So your ok.

gamiller

08-02-2007, 11:02 PM

the place here andy said they can do it. Reputable shop. I mean yea you gotta come back to the ol VA but they can dyno and tune it for you.

yeah, i am thinking that it might have been worthwhile to get that done while i was up there. like Andy, my 3L is sooooo smooth above 4K...

i am currently using a Nautilus tune. hopefully they can tailor it better to my setup once i have data logs to offer them.

Topik

08-02-2007, 11:39 PM

once you are on a live dyno you will be fine IMO. The place I am using is a great place. Appointments are recommended though as they are quite busy.

AndyMan

08-03-2007, 12:14 AM

That exhaust leak, would have resulted in the reading, it is as originally thought you are definitely not lean by the datalogs, and rich is certainly the way these beasts seem to be a lot of the time until tuned.

Just a question Andyman, I presume there is no cel codes coming up when the engine is running rough.

There are no CEL now since the tune was loaded in. Even then, the only CEL code i would get would be for the IMRC not being connected and it not working properly.... simply because there are no secordies now.

cpapashley

08-03-2007, 06:08 AM

There are no CEL now since the tune was loaded in. Even then, the only CEL code i would get would be for the IMRC not being connected and it not working properly.... simply because there are no secordies now.

Just asking the question, understand about the secondaries.

So what exactly was the problem with the exhaust that resulted in a leak?

Also there is no chance of an intake leak at all??

GrandMasterKhan

08-03-2007, 03:08 PM

the exhaust gaksets @ the cat are bad. Resulting in an exhaust leak. which caused the a/f sniffer in the tailpipe to read mad lean.

His actual A/f ratio is NOT LEAN. His oem 02 sensors are showing he is running a safe a/f ratio.

the intake tract is tight. So little chance of a vaccume leak.

AndyMan

08-03-2007, 05:06 PM

tom sent me some new tunes that i can load up on the Xcal2..
He belives there is a wires/plugs/coil issue...
So as of next week before i load the tunes.. i am getting new plugs/coil pack and wires on the car...
I already have new plug wires on the car already, but i've read that a bad coil pack and make new wires run bad...
so lets see how that plays out :thumbsup:

gamiller

08-04-2007, 07:56 PM

I already have new plug wires on the car already, but i've read that a bad coil pack and make new wires run bad...
so lets see how that plays out :thumbsup:

Crossing my fingers!

warmonger

08-07-2007, 11:46 AM

You should really have just went to a shop that would tune the car on the dyno so the air fuel would be dead on. A mail order tune no matter how good the tuner is will never be spot on.

You know what, that hasn't been true so far. I have actual dyno proof of mail-order tunes being spot on the first time through. :mad:
Just ask RAWBURT what his air fuel was on the dyno even with his turbo car through his "included" mail order tune when he bought the turbo kit....
Anyway...
It's all in the details. IF his MAF is reading correctly, the injectors used are properly set in the tune then I can command the exact air fuel ratio.
9 out of 10 times I can tell you it is because of mechanical issues. His dyno graphs are showing ignition issues first off. I can't tell you what combination of plugs and wires to use but whatever he is using just isn't working, or the coil may have issues, OR it could be the wiring harness infront of the rear valve cover is not fully seated or has corrosion on the pins. That harness has the injector and some sensor lines running through it and is increasingly becoming a culprit on our cars as they get older for that "rough misfire/shake" feelings that people are getting.
I recommend cleaning those contacts on those three plugs in front of the rear valve cover and insuring they are plugged in fully and zip-tied tight if necessary so they don't come loose.
Joey and I had this EXACT same issue on his car because the retaining clips had broken and the plugs would vibrate apart.

I must confess though that I cam coming into this after a two month Hiatus. I had to go live in the desert and train in the military for over 30 days and I'm only just now getting back to figure out what is going on. I hadn't realized that Joey had already Tuned his car. I will get with Andyman and go over the tune in detail. I will need the datalogs as well and I can tell you right off if it is a tune issue or a mechanical issue.
I'll get the tune file from Joey and cross reference the two and we should have all we need to make sure he's straight.

warmonger

08-07-2007, 02:37 PM

A-****ing-men

Really....so from reading your Posts AndyMan should go to a reputable shop...implying that I'm not reputable AND from what the two of you posted that I can not get a tune spot on through the mail. :rolleyes:

What makes me laugh is just this morning I was catching up on the PMs and responding to all the ones I've had over the past two months....Just want to quote you on one that I responded to before reading this:

As you probably already know, I purchased the DanG cougar. I have been in the market for a tune and was curious as to your rates and requirements for a tune.No problem. Please go to Nautilus Performance Group (http://www.nautilusperformance.com)
and look under product catalog, then tuning.
We offer several tuning packages and also the hardware.
After reading that leave me an email through sales@nautilusperformance.com specifying what you are looking for and your goals. If you have special needs we'll have to quote you a special price.
Thanks!

Since I've never tuned for you then I don't know how you can suddenly change your attitude so quickly. It raises the questions in my mind that if you think so poorly of mail order tuning then why are you wasting my time? Or, what made you change your mind so quickly in a matter of 6 weeks or so?
Since I just got back and have ALREADY begun to address AndyMan's issues I think both of you ought to chillax until you see the results.
Not only that, AndyMans dyno graphs are completely identical to other duratecs that have had plug wire/ignition issues while on the dyno. I have dyno's back to 2001 and I have before, during, and after dynos of bad ignition components. HIS dyno sheets look exactly like that....major stuttering/misfires in the lower rpm ranges with it smoothing out as you break above 4500-5000rpm.
His air fuel is not even confirmed to be bad yet...and looks like it is NOT bad when you have O2 voltages of .8 and higher,AND to boot they both comment on how strong it runs up top. Up top is where the air fuel ratio and spark timing are critical for good performance. Also, he cannot even tell me whether the injectors are 21# or 24# so I don't even know which values to plug in. I recommend using the 19#'rs anyway but I'm more than happy to give him good value for his money and completely figure out which injector it is and get his tune dialed in for him.

Just so you guys know, I only got into tuning because DYNO shops were unable to tune our boosted cars. Fully half of my customers have come from people with jacked up and incomplete tunes (both NA and boosted) from DYNO shops who just run it on the dyno to get the WOT fuel ratio correct and call it a day...usually at by-the-hour prices and $600 later all it will do well is run Wide Open Throttle while stalling and surging every other time and getting poor fuel mileage.

The tuner actually knowing both the engine and the computer code and how changes affect certain things is the ONLY way you will get a good tune. Most tuning shops know how to tune a mustang, not a duratec. It's sad but it is almost a fact.
Just ask around and you'll find out how right I am. Now I don't care if you want to use my services or not, but many people do and they are satisfied. I give excellent customer service and continue to work to perfect it.

starjammir

08-07-2007, 02:54 PM

A+ rating for Tom. When my car was on the dyno at Spring Zing, it was good to me. Tom did a couple of tunes for me and all were great IMO. Great person to do business with and a good all around person. I will def be sending people his way for tuning.

Topik

08-08-2007, 12:23 AM

ill bite my tongue on this

StealthyWeasel

08-08-2007, 07:39 AM

Maybe buy PRP and draw your own conclusions about your car and the tune? That is really the only way you can be most confident, if you learn to tune and do it yourself.

Otherwise, you could end up with things like no rev limiter. Funny learning that one. :rolleyes:

warmonger

08-08-2007, 12:24 PM

AndyMan

08-08-2007, 12:31 PM

warmonger

08-08-2007, 12:50 PM

IF one of my injectors were not properly clicked in all the way..
What would be the symptoms of that?...
That would mean only 5 injectors are working and they are spraying very hard to keep the fuel usage up therefore creating a larger explosion which would result in the car running alot rougher then it did before right???? :shrug:

The exhaust has been very loud lately and i think that gasket also is complete burnt off in the exhaust.

um not exactly. You would have a misfire in one cylinder and your air fuel on that cylinder would be a tad leaner which might cause the other two cylinders on the same bank to be a bit rich. Still, it would just feel kinda shaky and not like a stutter. The stuttering comes about because multiple cylinders are getting ignition pulses at the wrong time, acting in some cases like misfires.

StealthyWeasel

08-08-2007, 12:57 PM

What, YOU are going to way in on this? :goofy:

Yes, actually I am. I am trying to help out, thats all.

And if you think I played you (which I didn't) then I am obviously not the stupid one, you are. Anyways, you said you were mature enough to not want to get into drama and such (not in front of me anyways) so I assume you will not start a pissing match. Quit attacking me and move on. Again, all I offered was a suggestion. That implication in my first comment was a mistake another tuner made, just in case you assumed it was you. Bye!

warmonger

08-09-2007, 12:40 AM

TeeHee :tongue: You said it not me, though I'm shocked you'd think that about me. :eek: and even calling me stupid on top of it...but that's okay, I understand. Just remember, Everyone is not against you, and it'll be okay.

cpapashley

08-09-2007, 03:38 AM

The tuner actually knowing both the engine and the computer code and how changes affect certain things is the ONLY way you will get a good tune. Most tuning shops know how to tune a mustang, not a duratec.

Just to add a little opinion from Australia, most tuners here know how to tune various types of local vehicles but again they have absolutely no idea what a duratec is let alone what potential it has and how to tune it.....

Even the master Porsche mechanic that has set up his own performance shop locally has no idea what a duratec is...

If I had a Porsche I would go to him...and if I had a another type of car he has experience with I would go to him, but after a number of discussions with him about tuning the duratec I would not go to him in a fit, master Porsche technician or not.....

My point is go with someone who knows the engine and has a desire to get the best from it, not someone who has no idea of the engine itself and the way to tune it......

nuf from me I am ranting now, just frustrates me when personalities get in the road of working out a tune....

StealthyWeasel

08-09-2007, 07:45 AM

Just remember, Everyone is not against you, and it'll be okay.

You're right, they're not! Thanks! ;)

AndyMan

08-09-2007, 07:56 AM

warmonger

08-09-2007, 09:19 AM

what about a burnt exhaust gasket?.. i feel like that gasket between the y-pipe and the catalic converter is burnt more the 50% off... would that cause a rough idle?... normally because of air leaking out?? :shrug:
Well it can. I've had cars in the past with rust holes in pipes near the catalyst cause rough idle and surging under cruise. I'm not sure why it would other than some heavy reversion but it is a common problem in some other cars I've worked on in the past. Installing a new gasket and possibly checking your catalyst may work wonders.

By the way, PM me and let me know how the testing is going. A couple of datalogs, one for each would be good right about now.

gamiller

08-09-2007, 03:43 PM

Really....so from reading your Posts AndyMan should go to a reputable shop...implying that I'm not reputable AND from what the two of you posted that I can not get a tune spot on through the mail. :rolleyes:

What, YOU are going to way in on this? :goofy:

:drama:

Tom, you don't need to be so defensive. Neither Topik nor Stealthy were suggesting that you are less than great at tuning. I think Topik was merely suggesting that a dyno tune would be ideal. I think there is consensus that nobody can tune a Duratec quite like you. :grouphug:

AndyMan

08-09-2007, 05:07 PM

i am going to datalog the car again this sunday to see if there are any spikes this time.. ( ready for the coil pack, wires, and plugs to go in... just have to work around this insane heat wave here)

but i am thinking half of the problem is the ignition and the last half is the exhaust leak... :shrug:

warmonger

08-09-2007, 05:52 PM

:drama:

Tom, you don't need to be so defensive. Neither Topik nor Stealthy were suggesting that you are less than great at tuning. I think Topik was merely suggesting that a dyno tune would be ideal. I think there is consensus that nobody can tune a Duratec quite like you. :grouphug:

Thanks, I appreciate the effort you are making. However, none of the posts are saying that I'm the best at tuning a duratec nor would I even make that claim. I make the claim that I am good at it and will do my best to insure AndyMan is satisfied. I wouldn't want anyone else to make that claim either.

As for why I felt offended: I didn't like the implications and I really don't like coming home from a 6 week hiatus doing military training to find all kinds of issues, then comments in the same thread when I haven't been given a chance to even address those issues.
I would feel very dishonorable to take his money for a tune then have him go somewhere else for another tune on anyone's advice before I even had a chance to do my best at it.

You could be right that they weren't suggesting my tuning was bad, but they never suggested my tuning was good and it was placed in the same thread AndyMan started about having an issue with his car. If you have all the pieces of information and look at it solely on the receiving end then maybe you can see my point.
Topik and I spoke in PMs and I fully understand with and agree in principle with most of what he said. I don't have any problems with what Stealthy said as he didn't say anything wrong. I only think that it may not be helpful to most people to attempt to start doing their own tuning if they are not prepared to get fully involved in it. Self-tuning is not for everyone. And before anyone says it, I moderate two tuning forums that are designed to HELP the self-tuner so I do NOT hold back in helping people do it themselves and try to make business for myself. I get plenty of tuning business from people that can't or don't want to do it themselves.

StealthyWeasel

08-10-2007, 12:00 AM

That's a good way to put it. Lets just all get along, and call it a day.

Warmonger has done alot to advance this community to what it is today, with all the turbo setups and what not. I just want to see some numbers :drool:

AndyMan

08-15-2007, 10:43 AM

Update:

Well... turns out this wasn't really much of tuning as i thought it was. Since the 19lbs were installed and the tune was loaded up.... the heistation i was feeling really wasn't spark related.
Last night me and Kenny changed the spark plugs out and looked to see if there were any carbon build up due to the richness its been getting.. I phone pic DanG to see if the spark plugs were fine and they were. But still we changed them to be sure.

At the same time... we looked at the plastic clip on the fuel rail that holds in the fuel injectors... and saw it was extremly lose.... :( So loose that the front probly only ONE of those front 3 weren't making contact :(
There was a screw on the LIM that seem to be all the way unscrewed pushing up the plastic rail preventing the injectors to clip all the way in... I have no idea how it happend but we fixed that now...

The car runs so much better now. I also loaded up the tune again and didn't mess with ANY of the fuel ratio and let it be where's it suppose to be....
The car runs alot better now...
There is still some slight hiesitation under 3.5krpm... but i can live with it. I would take it like that anyday over how its been running this past month...

like 15mpg... highway :disgust: ... hopefully not anymore :biggrin:

I still need to fix the exhaust leak in the flexpipe gasket and get a wideband 02 sensor put in at the same time before i take it back to a dyno.
Now.. mind you the dyno graph from the first post is the car at its worst... with 87 octane... 2 injectors not spraying... leak in the flexpipe...
and still made 200hp wheels :cool:

I will keep u guys updated when everything is fixed

StealthyWeasel

08-16-2007, 08:44 AM

I think we're looking at a 210+ wheel HP build here :cool:

GrandMasterKhan

08-18-2007, 12:58 PM

yeah the injector harness was indeed loose. Which was causing some issues.

With that fixed and the new sparkplugs the car runs night and day better. It is MUCH more smooth under 4k though there is still a very slight hesitation. The car just wants to blow the tires off with anything more than 50% throttle in 1st gear. :evil:

I am also looking forward to the new dyno with correct a/f ratios.

Rikenbomb

08-18-2007, 01:26 PM

Glad to hear your issues got resolved.

warmonger

08-19-2007, 04:33 PM

Well, thank you for coming on an letting people know.
When you get a chance, send me a new datalog and I'll verify that everything is working as it should be.

fordrule

08-26-2007, 02:17 PM

ilovemycar

08-26-2007, 07:31 PM

i know my car had the hesistation under 3k because of the secondaries ...they were removed and ilovemycar tuned with a prp and added spark and fuel = no more hesitation. she is a lot quicker now ...i miss her lol

I will second that...absolutely no hesitation...i wish i could've had more time with that thing to really do some fine tuning. Maybe i should just get my 3L in the car and i would have something to do lol :banghead:

AndyMan

11-25-2007, 09:51 PM

and months later... UPDATE*** Finally!!!

coil pack... NEW..
Spark plugs... NEW
Plug wires... NEW
Exhaust flexpipe leak... FIXED

Even had DanG looked over the engine and everything appears to be hooked up as its suppose to be.
The car did improve alittle bit but the main problem exsists.
Tom looked over the datalogs even with the fixes and changes and still minor studdering. I can live with the car as it is now thats not biggie... But it i will wonder why the car acts like it does.

DanG drove the car recently and hopefully he will come on here and share his knowledge what he belives is wrong and go from there.

any ideas would be greatly appreciated. :thumbsup:

DanG

11-26-2007, 12:02 AM

Excerpt from the E-mail I just sent to Tom along with the datalog:

I inspected the car for a proper install of the new coil pack, plug wires, plugs, ECU grounding, and coil pack grounding. The ECU ground is tight to the inside fender of the car, the ECU harness itself has no damaged contacts and is tightly secured to the ECU, the main ground from the battery is tight where it attaches to the transaxle case/engine bolt, the coil pack grounding strap is in place and tight (no corrosion), and all plugs and wires were seated properly, electrodes were clean, and proper gap set.

We went on a datalogging run on a ~1 mile stretch of straight road by my house. The log is of acceleration from 0, into 4th gear at low RPM, where I applied artificial load to the engine by applying the brake & gas simultaneously to exaggerate the symptom. Sure enough, the bogging/miss was present. After extending this artificial load for a time, we came back to a stop where the datalog ended. At that time, I smelled extremely lean exhaust odor.

If this was a spark issue, I believe it would become worse with RPMs, as spark energy begins to break down weak components with higher spark event frequency. To make sure we were strong on spark, I swapped out his plugs for a known good set of Motorcraft AWSF32s gapped to .054". Each plug wire boot was lubricated with dialectic grease to avoid spark bleed through the boot, and an audible "click" was heard on each when the contact engaged the plug. Andy reported that the problem was still present after the plug swap.

The 3500RPM "magic point" has me believing that somehow the ECU is referring to some stock IMRC (in this case- pre-IMRC open point) fuel and spark tables. I know the IMRC has been deleted from Andy's tune, but what of the primary-runner-only timing and fuel? It seems too coincidental that the problem just vanishes after the stock IMRC open point, and the lean exhaust smell seems to support this idea. However, I didn't see any whacked-out fuel trims on the LiveLink dashboard during the logging (long term or short term trims) that supports this idea. So I'm stuck? :shrug:

cpapashley

11-26-2007, 06:34 AM

I can only speak for the mpv, but looking at a service highlights book, it seems to definitely indicate that under high load conditions there is a imrc increase correction for fuelling.

Goes something like this in the book.

The control system enters heavy load increase zone either when

1. Throttle opening angle is above a specified level
2. Charging efficiency exceeds a specified level
3. Engine speed is above 4500 rpm

no real mention of 3500 rpm, which seems to indicate that the fueling adjustment is happenning regardless of the imrc point, more based on air flow and throttle angle.

Now of course it may be different for the cougar, but one thing that it does mention specifically is some specific correction called the imrc increase correction in the calculation. The listed purpose is

"Corrects air-fuel ratio (makes it rich) when imrc is operating"

Yet in the above list of conditions the imrc was not taken into account. hmm interesting.

Not too sure what the amount is as it doesn't have that info but reading that makes me think there is some sort of correction table possibly. Basically no code being recieved by pcm that imrc is there, then no correction of base fuel table below imrc point. Once above then I would say it is irrelevant as then the fuelling should be right.

sorry I cannot offer anything else.

Let me know if I can offer anything else.

Rikenbomb

11-27-2007, 12:01 AM

However, how are full 3Ls able to run just fine without any problems (once tuned)?

This leads me to believe that the 2.5L upper intake is the issue if it is not anything else. Because the IMRC is defeated, both runners are going straight into the engine at varying velocities (because of unequal length). This is leading to an uneven air/fuel mixture at lower rpms. At higher rpms the engine behaves normally.

The way I see it 2.5L intakes necessitate the use of the IMRC.
Full 3Ls have equal length runners which explains why they run fine under the IMRC point.

At this point I would recommend reinstalling the IMRC and the secondaries and retuning it for the IMRC. I think you'll be much happier with your engine that way.

I'm not trying to get into a big OT discussion here, pm me or take it to a new or resurrected thread. I'd like to see AndyMan be happy with his 3L.

cpapashley

11-27-2007, 02:15 AM

Still cannot understand that though, as I thought there were a number of the hybrid's around without secondaries running fine???

BurritaSVT

11-27-2007, 08:41 AM

DanG if he bought the tune through us Tom is away but I can help you. Did Tom send you a tune with the adjustablity to change the fuel and spark. Also I can send you a stock tune minus the IMRC with no timing added back because Tom add's back the timing where it should be when it is functional. Give me his full name and the approx. date and of course the SN# on the back I will send you a retune joey.

AndyMan

11-28-2007, 05:21 PM

thanks for the info.
I was able to contact Toms partner and i was able to get a new tune today. I am going to load it up and see if it still has the same symptoms and we will go from there.

stay tuned!! :)

AndyMan

11-28-2007, 08:02 PM

alrighty,

The new tune Joe sent had reduced timing and i did feel as if the car ran smoother under the 3.5k range. But the main bucking and studdering is coming from the load of the throttle... if i was in 4th gear going 20mph... the car runs horrible... Dan even noticed that its very lean at the load. Even if u tap the gas, the car studders badly trying to find itself before it tries to smooth out.
It may be ignition somewhere but if that were the case,.. it would probly be in the block somewhere...
I am preparing to do a new datalog to see where i can find this problem...
Everything i am doing so far has been slowly BUT effective finding this source... so that means sooner or later we have to find out exactly what it is.. so thats awsome.
One step at a time.

:thumbsup:

cpapashley

11-29-2007, 02:27 AM

Andyman, I cannot remember do you have a wideband air fuel meter? I am sure that would identify straight away what is happenning.

They don't cost too much either, they even have those ones that double as the normal output for your ecu and then provide wideband output as well. I think the brand is plx or something like that.

May just be money well spent to identify where things are at and quickly get that tune right. After all, if the spark and air is right then the fuel is the only one left...

Blackcoog

11-29-2007, 09:58 AM

On one of the 3L cars I built it had similar symptoms and it was the DPFE sensor. For some reason it wasn't popping a check engine light even though it was bad. Read this article:

Focus Hacks: Ford Focus Style, Maintenance and Performance Instructions (http://www.focushacks.com/index.php?modid=80)

Redlineracer12

11-29-2007, 12:45 PM

The way I see it 2.5L intakes necessitate the use of the IMRC.
Full 3Ls have equal length runners which explains why they run fine under the IMRC point.

At this point I would recommend reinstalling the IMRC and the secondaries and retuning it for the IMRC. I think you'll be much happier with your engine that way.

I'm not trying to get into a big OT discussion here, pm me or take it to a new or resurrected thread. I'd like to see AndyMan be happy with his 3L.

I agree with your recommendation. 2.5 Upper=>secondaries

gamiller

11-29-2007, 07:00 PM

AndyMan

11-29-2007, 09:39 PM

cpapashley, infact yes i do have a wideband 02 air fuel gauge BUT i haven't had it installed yet. I have the to have the 02 sensor wielded in.

gamiller, i have a drift kit front bumper and my cai gets alot of air. maybe even to much. i will post a pic of it.

DanG

11-29-2007, 11:38 PM

welded

DING DING DING! :biggrin:

<prepares my MIG and TIG welders>

cpapashley

11-30-2007, 05:38 AM

Glad to hear you're still making progress on this.

Just for kicks, remove the CAI and clamp the filter onto the MAF adapter. My 3L was running crazy lean* until I ditched the CAI. The air flow was not getting metered properly.

* Okay, for those that recall my thread from this summer, the motor was actually running crazy rich originally, but that was with the CAI sticking into the wheel well. When I adjusted the CAI so that my tire wouldn't rub against it, the air got directed away from the MAF sensor, even though it was going through the MAF itself. Then the MAF reported only a fraction of the air that was entering the engine.

That is very interesting, but I have to say that surely when comparing air flow details against other vehicles datalogging it would become very obvious that there is something wrong...and yes I realise that often vehicles can be very different in their set up, but surely the metred airflow would be ballpark between similar 2.5l engines and 3.0l engines (better put that in seeing this is the 3.0l forum). Surely that would be something very obvious if you were datalogging...but I guess if you didn't have anything to compare against then it would all be a bit of a mystery.

So my question is then have we some details that could be posted up as a sticky that would detail something like MAF g/sec (or lb/min whatever it is) versus engine revs?? in a vehicle that is actually running well. And then something like the injector duration for set sized injectors and maybe also something like air/fuel ratio details and timing advance...

That would be mighty handy for anyone who is tuning themselves with the prp or whatever to look and understand if there is anything wrong as you experienced there Gamiller and possibly yourself andyman.

oh and what on earth does that post mean Dang???, are you indicating maybe an airleak or something??

gamiller

12-02-2007, 11:03 PM

cpapashley

12-03-2007, 02:33 AM

Andy, I'm not talking about air getting to the filter, I'm talking about the piping actually routing air away from the sensor even though it passes through the MAF itself.

CPAshley, DanG is just anxious to do more welding. :) Also, I agree that a baseline would be useful and should be posted to the Tuning forum.

That is a really interesting thought that one on the air being directed away from the maf...might help a little on another forum I am on with the emanage ultimate. Sometimes there is a lot of confusion over why a particular car is running so bad...with so many of the cars where major mods are made this could well be a problem....

That is a great find there gamiller...:thumbsup: