Front Mount Intercooler [Archive]

Blackcoog

07-02-2007, 08:35 AM

I'm looking for a good front mount intercooler that will flow enough to support my supercharged 3L. Lets say my maximum hp need is 450whp (leaves good head room) and I'd like to have as little pressure drop as possible.

The one I have now that fits is 22" x 6" x 3" and I think that is with the end tanks. It can't be any longer but could be a few inches taller or even a little thicker. It if is taller the inlet and outlet need to be as close to the bottom as possible.

Currently the intercooler I have drops the boost from 11psi to 6psi at the intake. Obviously that is not acceptable.

Any thoughts or suggestions?

I currently have my blow off valve after the intercooler before the intake. If the intercooler is maxed out where does the extra air go that can't get through the intercooler? The compressor isn't making any surging noises from air being forced back to it which is where you'd think it would have to go. It almost sounds like I should put the BOV between the supercharger and the intercooler, but I may have a space issue trying to get it in there.

Blackcoog

07-02-2007, 08:52 AM

Lots of good info on the site and they let you custom order what you want. Even ship the same day for more items.
Bell Intercoolers Air to Air Intercooler Assemblies (http://www.bellintercoolers.com/pages/AAAssm.html)

I called Bell intercoolers and went over my setup with one of their engineers. He said the smallest I can go is about 18"x12"x3.5" (core size). This has a 800 CFM rate which should be good for 450whp. The cost is..... $796.00 :(

A mass produced one should be much cheaper like the one below for example (the larger of the two listed):

BoneHead Performance (http://www.boneheadperformance.com/intake/meganic.htm)
(the 28" one should fit I'd have to double check)

FastCougar

07-03-2007, 05:42 PM

Check out this eBay store: Just-Intercoolers (http://stores.ebay.com/Just-Intercoolers)

fordrule

07-03-2007, 05:54 PM

good info

Unknown2k

07-06-2007, 02:52 PM

blustreak

07-06-2007, 05:01 PM

hmm you have a problem there thats more then the intercooler. 5 psi is alot! Is your BOV leaking, or is there a crack in the intercooler. OR a hole from a rock? I've heard of .5 to 1 psi loss when people go bigger with the intercooler, but 5???

I believe the problem is that the intercooler is too small and that's why the loss is so large.

Blackcoog

07-07-2007, 11:34 AM

Car holds boost fine without the intercooler. It is definately the intercooler causing the drop. I'm looking into a larger one.

Unknown2k

07-07-2007, 11:44 AM

I believe the problem is that the intercooler is too small and that's why the loss is so large.

nope Boost is boost. If the intercooler is too small then the air is to hot thats it. The reason they list a a HP limit is the total amount of air that the intercooler can cool.

The reason I say this is B/c the intercooler i have gets heat soaked in this AZ sun but I'm not losin any psi.. just power from the hot air. but if i get a bigger intercooler the air will be cooler but I wil lose a little psi b/c the amount of air needed to fill the intercooler will be more..

pgtatx

07-08-2007, 12:31 PM

Core efficiency is important... Both it's efficiency in ability to dissipate heat, and it's ability to flow air...

If you have 2 IC cores with the same dimensions... why does one produce a larger drop in pressure across the core than the other other one. If you look at a cross section of 2 cores... 1 being a name brand top core, and the other being an Ebay knock off, you'll see the answers.

Exterior dimensions alone will not tell you what the core will actually flow. Companies take guesstimated based on size, but reall companies actually test.

If an IC is too small or way too large (which is a common issue amongst the ricer community), you will end up with a not so fun situation.

If you have a turbo that pushes X amount of air, and then you have 5 ft of piping, and a huge core that flows XXX amount of air... you will end up woth significantly slower spool, and show a loss of pressure across the core. People think bigger is better, but that is not true...

If the turbo you have flows XXX amount of air, and you use an IC that flows X amount of air... you will be creating back pressure and significantly increasing the temp of the air. You may even see some some surging...

Find an optimally designed IC... good core and proper end tank design... and you will get the most out of the set up.

Unknown2k

07-08-2007, 02:05 PM

Ya thats why I love seein the SRT-4 guys with there huge intercoolers and they just started to mod there cars.. turbo can't flow grea enough for that cooler.

Blackcoog

07-09-2007, 08:38 AM

hmm you have a problem there thats more then the intercooler. 5 psi is alot! Is your BOV leaking, or is there a crack in the intercooler. OR a hole from a rock? I've heard of .5 to 1 psi loss when people go bigger with the intercooler, but 5???

I've been doing a lot of searching and it isn't uncommon to see larger losses due to an inefficient or too small of an intercooler. I'm going to get some temp and pressure data before and after my current intercooler and check for leaks.

For those that say I should look into a name brand intercooler feel free to give some suggestions. Here are my size constraints: 30"W x 12"H x 3.5"D That is the maximum size that will fit under the bumper and the width INCLUDES end tanks so a core width would be more like 26". The end tanks need to have the inlet/outlet at the bottom and preferably 2.5" but 3.0" will work. What information should a manufacturer have on there intercoolers?

I may go after this intercooler so if you see reasons why I shouldn't let me know: BoneHead Performance (http://www.boneheadperformance.com/intake/meganic.htm)

I researched Megan Racing and people seem to be very pleased with their intercoolers vs. price (they only sell those two universal intercoolers).

For a name brand intercooler I found this one online: 600HP Garrett High Density Intercooler Core w/ATP Cast End Tanks: atpturbo.com (http://www.atpturbo.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=ATP-INT-003&Category_Code=INT) what would I gain if I spend twice as much?

PuckPuck

07-09-2007, 10:30 AM

For a name brand intercooler I found this one online: 600HP Garrett High Density Intercooler Core w/ATP Cast End Tanks: atpturbo.com (http://www.atpturbo.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=ATP-INT-003&Category_Code=INT) what would I gain if I spend twice as much?

I'm not the pro boost/intercooler guy here, but my guess is some efficiency loss, which translates to higher air temps, which translates to a few ponies...

If I was building a casual boosted application, I would say the price is not worth the gains...
If I was building as good a setup I could, price should be far less a concern.

Blackcoog

07-09-2007, 02:14 PM

I'm not the pro boost/intercooler guy here, but my guess is some efficiency loss, which translates to higher air temps, which translates to a few ponies...

If I was building a casual boosted application, I would say the price is not worth the gains...
If I was building as good a setup I could, price should be far less a concern.

That's what I figured and Id be happy loosing 1-2psi as long as it can keep the intake charge cool vs. a name brand intercooler that may be optimized to only drop .5-1psi.

pgtatx

07-09-2007, 05:35 PM

a 1-2psi loss across the core is just fine... That is more than good enough and expected...

Another question for you... are you using very large diameter IC piping? I can't say what the best size piping is going to be, but there is an optimal size just like exhaust piping to kep allow for the best flow and velocity.

Unknown2k

07-09-2007, 10:23 PM

Well most of us VDUB/Audi guys are runnin 2.5" for piping.. Even the VR6T guys use that size. For intercooler brand.. Sparco or greddy..

Blackcoog

07-10-2007, 08:13 AM

I'm running 2.5" piping up until the GMK intake which is 3" (right when it comes into the engine bay from the fender). The new intercooler is going to be 3" inlet and outlet but I'm probably going to use a 3" to 2.5" reducer on each side so the piping can stay the same. The outlet on the supercharger is 2.5" which is the main reason for the 2.5" piping.

PREDATOR

07-10-2007, 11:17 AM

Well, I'm still very interested in this setup :thumbsup:

Keep up the good work :cool:

FastCougar

07-10-2007, 04:42 PM

As the air expands from 2.5" to 3", you will experience a boost drop. Not sure if that boost drop is regained when you go from 3" back to 2.5", but I can assure you that it will cause lag in the system if not an overall boost drop. I would try to stay with the same size piping throughout.

Unknown2k

07-10-2007, 05:35 PM

ya I was thinkin the same.. we have i tas a 2.5 to 3" coupler at the TB

sheldon729

07-11-2007, 10:05 PM

Link---> IceVex : Performance Racing Intercoolers (http://www.icevex.com/products_30c.html)

Just do 3" all the way so you keep a smoother air flow and air wont have to fill up the larger pipe and regain boost if it can cause the smaller piping is only delivering so much air, even if you just went 3" from the intercooler to the TB. Another issue ive heard before but i don't know if its even TRUE but if you have a F/I setup you shouldnt be using regular silicone couplers you should be using the reinfored boost couplers and clamps that are stronger and hold tighter for a better seal and are oil resistant, than maybe on needed for oil fed systems tho.....
Hey have you tried icevex?
Here is the specs on one for $255

High flow rate : 1000 CFM (with a pressure drop of 2.8 psi)
Pressure drop : 0.46 psi at 410 CFM
Pressure drop : 0.98 psi at 600 CFM
Inlet and outlet : 3 inch (76 mm)
Operational pressure : 0 to 55 psig (0 to 3.7 bar)
Peak pressure : 74 psig (5 bar)

Overall size
Length : 25 inches (63 cm)
Height : 12 inches (30 cm)
Width : 3 inches (7.6 cm)
Core size
Length : 18 inches (45 cm)
Height : 12 inches (30 cm)
Width : 3 inches (7.6 cm)

Blackcoog

07-12-2007, 08:59 AM

Thanks for the link I probably would have went with that one if I didn't pick up the Megan intercooler already. I like that they have test data listed for it. I'm running all t-bolt clamps and the current couplers haven't had any issues.

pgtatx

07-12-2007, 12:51 PM

Don't believe manufacturer test data... There are very few companies who actually manufacturer IC cores... and even less who actually design end tanks for these cores... Most companies buy the cores and end tanks in bulk and just wels them togetner on premises.

I used to have pictures of the cross sections of the Cheap-o imported IC cores VS. the name brand cores... it was amazing the differences. The passages were different, the wall thickness and construction was different, the fin designs were different, the welds were different on the finished product... etc.

The best info to find is from real people who have tested their own setups...

Core Flow, Pressure drop, cooling efficiency, longevity of the construction, how much presure the IC can take before it may crack, etc...

Just keep playing around till you find the right one... Hopefully the one you got works for you...

Good luck either way...

BTW, do you or will you have any new pics of your completed set up? I'd like to see everything when it's all done.

sheldon729

07-12-2007, 07:35 PM

I agree post pics up when you get it all done:biggrin:

Blackcoog

07-13-2007, 08:08 AM

The current pictures posted up are nearly identical to how it looks now but I will get some more pictures up soon when the new clutch is installed and everything is up and running again. Current pictures are in the link below under the supercharger tab.

FastCougar

08-17-2007, 05:25 PM

So, what did you end up going with ... 3" inlet/outlet or 2.5" inlet/outlet ?

Blackcoog

08-17-2007, 07:09 PM

The size intercooler I went with was only available in 3" inlet and oulet so I used a 2.5" to 3" reducer on each side to connect to my 2.5" piping.

FastCougar

08-17-2007, 07:42 PM

sheldon729

08-17-2007, 08:24 PM

that a nice intercooler what u pay for that?

Shagmonkey

08-18-2007, 01:28 PM

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d121/carboncougar/Performance%20Ford/IMG_1038.jpg

Someone say intercooler ? :rofl:

BurritaSVT

08-20-2007, 06:08 PM

Yep, I'm doing the same ... I just picked this up: 27x11x3 FMIC Intercooler (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&sspagename=ADME%3AB%3AEOIBSAA%3AUS%3A11&viewitem=&item=250147015384#ebayphotohosting)

Fastcougar I just wanted to point out that the pressure drop on that intercooler will be huge. The core is split so you are only getting a 3 x 5.5 opening for airflow and worse part is that it is 42" run that will have alot of resistance. You are looking at about 5 square inches of air passages divided up into five veins which will make the airflow act like it is in a 2" pipe which is not enough for a 3 liter engine. I did a dynos on intercooler swaps and I noticed alot of differences in different setups. I recommend you get a 3 inch mininum wide intercooler with a 8 inch tall intercooler keeping the length less then 25 inch core side to side feed since the length is more for cooling but has a negative effect on pressure drop.

The best FMIC overall is always a top to bottom flow intercooler I have them and trust me you can't compare a 7 inch area to a 12 inch area with the same cooling area as a side to side. Pm me if you need help getting one if you haven't bought one yet. joey
http://easylink.playstream.com/burritasvt/progressive/stage3_002.jpg

warmonger

08-20-2007, 08:27 PM

Hahah yeah I noticed that too! I didn't want to post, but....since you opened that can of worms why not. Now I'm not POSITIVE...but it sure looks like a two-pass intercooler! So yeah it is like having a 42+" intercooler that is only 5" tall. Talk about pressure drop! That turbo will be boostin what, 15psi and the engine will see maybe 8-10psi?

FastCougar

08-21-2007, 12:57 AM

It's not my only cooler ... I have a single pass as well, but I'm playing around with different configurations to see what can be done with the same side in/out.

warmonger

08-21-2007, 07:53 AM

Sorry man, I was enjoying a beverage when I was posting so I wasn't quite so informative.
That two-pass intercooler will be fine for lower boost pressures and flow rates however.
We found that on the standard side-side intercoolers with smaller cores when we were approaching 7-8psi that it cut a lot of top-end power off. Then we cranked the boost and we got more torque increase in themidrange but not much power in the top end, a sign that we were limited by peak airflow.
Then we got a thicker/taller core and we punched right on through that barrier and found the two best sized for moderate and midrange turbos on our car.
Then we developed the front mount intercooler kit for our stage3, almost what you saw in the picture from Joey on the last page. A vertical flow intercooler that has essentially the same heat exchange area as the other intercoolers but 2-3x more flow area for smaller pressure drop. We will be testing this design soon but it took a lot more work to get it all to fit. Therefore we won't recommend to any but the guys who are running big monster kits....like yours.

FastCougar

08-22-2007, 03:50 PM

BurritaSVT

08-22-2007, 08:06 PM

My other intercooler is exactly like this one: eBay Motors: 20 x9 x 2.5 FMIC INTERCOOLER DSM GST GSX ECLIPSE (item 270157524586 end time Aug-24-07 10:35:17 PDT) (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/20-x9-x-2-5-FMIC-INTERCOOLER-DSM-GST-GSX-ECLIPSE_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ33742QQihZ017QQ itemZ270157524586QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW)

That FMIC will flow enough for 350whp to 375whp efficiently that will be your best one I would not scratch the other intercooler you will need to sell it because it will do nothing for you like this one will. So my guess would be to build your intercooler piping for that one first and make a extra pipe to just attach the other one to it just to test it to see what it will do. I am sure you will go buy another boost guage to hook up to the compressor housing and the use the stationary boost guage for your manifold pressure so you can see your pressure drop.

this FMIC should have about 8-9 inches of air flow of cross area with will be better than the 6 inches on the other FMIC which will have less the run too.

Blackcoog

08-24-2007, 10:00 AM

The Megan Racing intercooler I picked up is 28" x 11.75" x 3" and works wonders. :)

When I had the car dynoed it was 93 degrees and the intake temps never went about 100 degrees. Actually the intake temps barely fluctuated at all even after 8 consecutive runs to get the final graph I posted up.

Here is the link for it again: Megan Racing (http://www.meganracing.com/products/product_detail.asp?prodid=313&catid=92)

http://www.newcougar.org/forums/attachments/forced-induction/30208d1184984885-interest-supercharger-setup-dsc02842.jpg

MagicHallucinations

08-24-2007, 10:09 AM

Good choice.....that's a quality core:thumbsup: Can't wait to see your results.

FastCougar

08-24-2007, 10:49 AM

I almost went with the same core based on this thread, but I would have to get really funky creative on the return pipe routing. Who knows, I may end up with two FMIC's for sale soon and be hunting for a new one.

sheldon729

08-31-2007, 07:10 PM

what did you use to mount up the intercooler And the intercooler is cheaper on this site and its the exact same one thats the one i bought. BoneHead Performance (http://www.boneheadperformance.com/intake/meganic.htm) Also is there any difference if the bottom of the intercooler is tilted backwards more towards the engine for a better fit rather than straight up and down? Dam drift bumper haha

Blackcoog

09-04-2007, 08:44 AM

I didn't buy it from the site I listed. I found it for about $230 shipped but I don't remember the web address. The top and bottom of the intercooler has mounting points. I made my own brackets to bolt to the intercooler.

You can't tilt this intercooler at all if you still have your stock 5mph bumper. It can only sit in the exact location I have unless you cut into the 5mph bumper.

sheldon729

09-04-2007, 09:05 PM

i dont got the stock 5mph bumper because it won't fit behind the drift front...once again dang drift front lol. And why cant you tilt the intercooler im curiouscause if not im going to have to get a smaller intercooler or do some moding to the bumper... The intercooler wouldn't be tilted to much at all maybe tilted 2" at more toward the engine at the bottom of the intercooler. I got room to tilt it if it safe too, and yeah brackets would be a piece of cake to make now i know where the bottom and the top would line up too.

Blackcoog

09-05-2007, 11:51 AM

My head hurts from reading that....

I said you can't tilt it IF you have the 5mph bumper because it's in the way. If you don't have that then you should be able to tilt it depending on the bumper. I'm not sure how tilting it will affect the cooling. I'd imagine a slight tilt would be fine.